The rules for multiple grapples in pathfinder has the additional grapplers use the Aid Another action essentially. This adds a +2 bonus for the initial grappler. However, what if the second grappler wants to do something specific such as tie up the creature being grappled? The second grappler has rope available and wants to approach and tie up the creature. Are there rules for this? Doesn't make sense to Aid Another. I adjudicated the situation but was wondering if there was a rule for this in the core rules. Thanks.
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I know of no explicit rules for doing this within the RAW. I'd have to think how to handle it. But I think I would have the second grapple have to succeed at a touch attack, with all the various adjustments to the grapplee's AC. Then have the 2nd grappler make, maybe a Survivial check, with a DC of the grapplee's adjusted CMD. I'd be interested in hearing how you ran it.
You know how hard it is to bind somebody that you're grappling while he's alive, kicking, headbutting, squirming, and doing everything else in his power to break free? Try it sometime. Get a friend. Put a rope in your pocket. You and your friend start wrestling. Now, pull out that rope and tie him up.
You'll quickly see the problem. One, you have to let go of your opponent to get your rope. That makes it really very difficult to keep holding him. Two, assuming you hang on, you now have to tie that rope, onto a moving, resisting target, using only one hand. Want to use both hands, well, then you have no hands restraining your opponent.
This is really fairly hard. Yes, it's a skill that can be mastered, but that doesn't change the fact that it's fairly hard.
But, in Pathfinder, it's easy. In fact, once you establish your hold and maintain it in the next round, you get bonuses to holding your opponent (+5) even if you only use one hand. Very peculiar. Very abstract.
So, given the extreme simplification of a fairly difficult trick into an easy, abstract rule, I don't wee why we need a complicated rule for your buddy to tie up the guy you're still holding.
1. You grappled successfully. Your opponent did his best to resist (CMD) but you got him. With both hands.
2. Your buddy can use both hands to tie the rope. That's 10x easier than you doing it with just one hand.
3. You can continue using both hands to hold your enemy while your buddy does his thing. Using both hands is 10x easier than using just one.
4. All things said, that makes it 100x easier for your buddy to tie up your enemy than it is for you to do it.
As I previously said, tying up your own grappled victim is Pathfinderized into a simple abstraction, and since letting your buddy do it is about 100x easier, it should be really easy for your buddy to succeed.
So for me, I just let him use the exact same "Tie Up" rules that the grappler would use, and he doesn't take the -10 penalty since he gets both hands and since his victim is being held with two more hands. Easy. Simple even. It skips the initial "Start a grapple" roll, but since that grapple has already started, there is no need to do it twice.
It doesn't really seem 100x easier, but heck, I just made those numbers up anyway. The Pathfinder rules aren't the only abstract grappler on these forums.
Tying up an opponent is an option you get after you have successfully grappled and pinned him. See the grappling rules here.
Now thats a nice one. First of all how the situation goes is up to the DM and how logical he is.
But the rules are those : If the victim is pinned then the grappler or the helper can tie up the victim and the DC to escape the ropes is 20 + CMB(either grappler's or helper's depends who tries to tie up the victim).
NOTE: If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 +
the target’s CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
If the victim is just grappled then the grappler can try to tie him up but at -10 penalty. A helper cannot tie up a grappled foe but can assist the grappler granting +2 bonus.
If a helper wants to tie up a victim then he must succeed his grapple check and then try the tie up part on his own.
But as i said it depends how the DM actually believes grapple work.
NOTE: If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target’s CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
Note that a natural 20 on a skill check roll never indicates automatic success. Nor does a natural 1 mean automatic failure.
Get a copy of Strategists & Tacticians! There are a lot of specific combat maneuvers described.
Tying up an opponent is an option you get after you have successfully grappled and pinned him. See the grappling rules here.
That wasn't the question though, the question was how does a second, non-grappler, bind a creature who is grappled by a different character. Rules don't cover that.
Per the rules, I think wild_captain's correct, there is no direct way for a second character to join the grapple in order to bind a victim. I agree with DM_Blake that the rules make grappling easy even though it doesn't reflect real life ha.
I thought about starting off with some sort of touch attack, but that seemed a 3.5 type of rule, which pathfinder moved away from. So, I'm just going to say that the second grappler (who wants to come over and bind the victim) makes a new grapple check, and adjusting the victim's CMD for being flat footed (as the help from the original grappler).
Thanks for the input all!
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NOTE: If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target’s CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.Note that a natural 20 on a skill check roll never indicates automatic success. Nor does a natural 1 mean automatic failure.
This isn't a Skill check, it's a Combat Manuever check, which can auto success on a Nat 20 (in general). This specific instance is an exception spelled out.
--Vrock of Ages
Just a little information. The grappled condition apllies both to the grappler and the victim and doesnt make either of them flat-footed but instead both take a -4 penalty to dexterity and neither of them can move.
On the other hand the pinned condition makes the victim flat-footed, unable to move and imposes an extra -4 penalty to the victim's AC.
While the victim is pinned the grappler has still the grappled condition (-4 Dex) and furthermore he loses his Dex bonus to AC (but is not flat-footed). Meaning that a character with 18 dex who has successfully pinned a foe his Dex is now 14 and he loses the +2 AC bonus from his newly adjusted dex but he is NOT flat-footed.
So TerraZephyr in the new grapple check you intend to make with another character treat the victim's CMD taking into account the -4 Dex penalty because he is NOT flat-footed in the grappled condition.
If still confusing i'll be glad to give an example
Yeah, after I posted I saw it was -4 Dex, not flat footed and so that's how I intend to rule it if it comes up again. Since one of the character's is walking around with a supply of "binding scarves" (scarf wearing belly dancer character) I suspect it might!
A small correction.
Whoever has the grappled condition is denied his Dex bonus to AC vs attackers who have not the grappled condition