Hi there folks,
As Artificers are fan content (good job whoever did this BTW) not sure if this is the right place to be inquiring about them but here goes:
I have an Artificer/Rogue 2/3 and as such he gets 2 items via Weird Science plus he can scribe scrolls. What I can't get my head around is the part about the craft check in order to make said items and scrolls.
To whit (Weird Science Items):
Glasses of Identify - A pair of eyeglasses who's basic purposes are to Detect Magic (all the time in so far as to basically see what throws off an aura and what doesn't) and be able to use the Identify spell 2/Day
Ring of Shielding (not to be confused with broach of the same name) - Shield 2/Day
It says you roll a craft check. Which craft? In the case of the eyeglasses what does it cost timewise to incorporate a zero level spell (Detect Magic) which for all intents and purposes can be used over and over again by any caster who has it?
For the Scribe Scroll feat it also says roll a craft check, but again does not say which craft.
Am I missing something here?
HH
In the creating magic items section you will see that spellcraft is the skill that is used to enchant magic items. If this artificer class uses other craft skills instead, I would suggest using the skills listed for master craftsman feat, in the creating magic items section, under each type of item. For example scrolls on pg 552 list spellcraft, craft (calligraphy) or profession (scribe). Hmmm, since master craftsman can't be used on spell trigger or spell completion items normally, I wonder why they included those other skills? Does that mean that anyone with scribe scroll can use craft (calligraphy) instead of spellcraft?
Considering that Spellcraft is a class skill for Artificers, I would put my money on Spellcraft. That said, the pfSRD does make it sound like it's the Craft skill. Which Craft skill isn't clarified.
On the whole I find the Artificer to be poorly written and even more poorly balanced... Lightning + Inflict Moderate Wounds + Shield, 4 times a day, plus more if you can make a relatively easy check? And where does it say whether this uses one invention or three? And who gets hit by inflict moderate? Everyone hit by the lighting? Only the first person hit? Only someone in touch range? Can you touch someone with the inflict moderate who isn't in the path of the lightning? Does Shield last for the full duration, or just the turn the device is "fired"? And since the only cost of an invention is the time to make it, and nowhere does it say you can't put the same spell on more than once, let's just eliminate the confusion by making the thing cast Lightning three times with each pull of the trigger. ...Oh, wait, do all three have to be fired in the same direction?
...Oh, and did we mention that since "no components are required", Artificers get to spam spells with expensive material components all day long at no cost. Enjoy free Stoneskin for the entire party...
Also the fact that the class has explicit access to every spell list is scary in the extreme, especially since nowhere is a minimum attribute attached to anything. As long as he is high enough level, an Artificer with an INT of 6 can make horribly OP inventions just as easily as one with an INT of 30.
Salvage + ridiculous bonuses to crafting pretty much everything makes it even harder for the GM to control what magic items the party has, as the Artificier can relatively easily turn any magic item into any other.
Exemplar is yet another example of a poorly written class feature - once I reach level 20, any skill that I have zero ranks in is better than any skill that I have 5 or so ranks in. What? Why am I penalized for putting ranks into my skills? If I decide to invest one point into a skill at level 20, I am getting a -9 penalty to the skill for that choice.
I really like the concept of the class, but I feel like it needs some serious work before it will ever see my table.
Hi there folks,
As Artificers are fan content (good job whoever did this BTW) not sure if this is the right place to be inquiring about them but here goes:
I have an Artificer/Rogue 2/3 and as such he gets 2 items via Weird Science plus he can scribe scrolls. What I can't get my head around is the part about the craft check in order to make said items and scrolls.
Weird science doesn't state a roll is needed to make so one isn't needed -- kind of like an alchemist's extracts. All you need is the time.
EDIT: The craft magic item section (for scrolls) specifically states to use the normal craft magical item rules for what they can craft as actual magical items. It also gives you what their caster levels are for doing this.
I would probably count 0-level spells as 1st level for the purposes of inventions. But of a nerf, but as I mentioned about the Artificer is hardly going to win any medals for careful balance.
Ok, that clears up the one question about Weird Science, though that is sort overpowered. A roll should be necessary on the proper craft skill IMHO.
HH
Not really. Consider this is its primary class feature. It can only use it for spells up to 4th level and takes 20 hours to craft an item that can use that 4th level spell (IF that's the only spell they put into the item).
If they create as many items as possible it will take them 200 hours and they'll be able to use 5 spells of each spell level (1~4) a maximum 11 times each per day.
Again it's kind of like the alchemists bombs and extracts. There is no roll for those either even though they are "items". Besides when are they going to craft these weird science things? During down time. Is it really going to be an issue? No. So why make it more complicated than it needs to be?
Primary class feature is "can cast spells of up to 4th level through special (items) that aren't really items."
To use your example your Artificer 2/ Rogue 3 can craft 2 devices that can use a single spell each or one device that can use both first level spells at the same time. IF he creates the two devices then they both can be used 2 times a day, and it takes 8 hours total to craft them. If he crafts the single item that uses both spells at once it takes 8 hours to do it and it can only be used 2 times per day.
Not exactly powerful.
On to your house rules --
1. Material components -- meh ok no big deal.
2. Combining spells should be possible -- in fact it's the example they use in the class feature (lightning bolt and shield) and not allowing it means that you couldn't put mage armor and shield in the same device.
3. Honestly not a good deal for you. If the player makes an item that has 2 cure light wounds in it, he's got 2 spell levels (same as a 2nd level spell) that does 2d8+2xcaster level times per use. However he can only use that item a limited number of times -- if instead he made two of them he would get double usage but 1/2 the healing -- or exactly the same thing has he had before just in a different way.
4. Then a wizard should have to "craft" his spells, and the alchemist needs to "craft" his extracts. And you should lower the amount of time it takes.
5. Meh not sure what you mean on this one.
To use your example your Artificer 2/ Rogue 3 can craft 2 devices that can use a single spell each or one device that can use both first level spells at the same time. IF he creates the two devices then they both can be used 2 times a day, and it takes 8 hours total to craft them. If he crafts the single item that uses both spells at once it takes 8 hours to do it and it can only be used 2 times per day.
Not exactly powerful.
OTOH, being able to cast Lightning (for example) 2+ times in a single round is VERY powerful, if the cost of Quicken Spell is any indication. 18d6 damage 4/day is WAY better than 6d6 damage 12/day because it takes only a single round to get that damage instead of three. Your overall actions are limited (unless your Use Magic Device is stellar, which it will be if you are smart) but you get to end the encounter 3x as fast, which means the BBEG gets 1/3rd the actions. Oh, and this is all assuming that building multiple spells into an invention uses up multiple invention slots, which is not clarified in the rules.
And on the Use Magic Device note, let's consider an 11th level Artificer with a very reasonable charisma of 14. +2 from attribute, +11 from ranks, +3 from class skill, +6 from Skill Focus, +4 from Magical Aptitude, +1 from an appropriate Trait. A bit munchkined, but well within reason considering how important this skill is to your primary class feature, and I'm not giving him any magic items or buffs. This 11th level Artificer has a total +27 to UMD. This means that, after they use each of their devices 7 times (giving them, btw, effectively 7 4th level spells, 21 each of 3rd and 2nd level spells, and 28 1st level spells, not bad), they can still use them EIGHT MORE TIMES EACH before they have a more-than-natural-1 chance of the device breaking. So this 11th level character can reasonably cast Fireball 45 times per day if they use all their inventions on it. Boy I wish my Sorcerer could pull that off.
But one fireball a turn isn't that spectacular at 11th level. So instead lets make an invention that fires three fireballs per pull of the trigger. My Artificer can still use this out of the box 7 times, giving him 21 fireballs per day, except 2/3rds of them are Quickened for free. Focused on a single target, this deals 30d6 damage as a standard action - something not even Delayed Blast Fireball can pull at 20th level. Now admittedly my chances of using it more than 7 times are pretty abysmal - I have a whole 15% chance of it breaking on the 8th use, after all. But that's okay, I still have all my other inventions left, and I figure 15 castings of Bestow Curse should keep me useful for the rest of the day.
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Just to make it clear, if content was written for Pathfinder, or is presented as Pathfinder Compatible, we don't rewrite or change it. What you see is what it is.
I don't double-check every single thing that other collaborators post against the original source material (often I don't own a copy of the particular source material) and so it is possible there could be transcription errors where our copy differs from the original material. Its extremely unlikely as in most cases all we are doing is copying and pasting, but I have seen errors in the past. That's sort of why I/we depend on the community to flag errors if they find them.
We have had comments (mostly negative) on this class. Negative in that most feel it is poorly designed and incredibly broken. The fact is though that if its Open Content, and its made for Pathfinder, it might find its way onto the site sooner or later, and again, its not really our role to debate or check its "correctness" before doing so. I am considering adding a textbox note onto that page though indicating the negative response its gotten, but I'd really like to hear from anyone involved in its design/creation before stamping it with a big "WARNING THIS CLASS MAY BE BROKEN" label lol
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Oh yes, don't get me wrong. I personally am not critiquing the class because in all honesty I have two things going against me when it comes to mechanical reviews of classes:
1) I suck at it
2) I generally don't have the time.
9 times out of 10 while I spend a great deal of time on many pages, all I am doing is formatting the pages so they match the layout of the site and are linked correctly etc. The words are all right there in front of me, but I rarely even read them. I just make sure the page looks right and hope the original poster of the content did it right. When one of you points out an error I then go back and try to confirm if the error was in our posting or if the error existed in the original material. Usually it was in the original material but from time to time copy and paste accidents happen.
So in short, yeah, I don't want it to sound like I/we are ripping on the class because in truth, when I looked at it, it looked very fun to me. Others have pointed out all of the little ways it is very inconsistent with standard design elements, but I still thought the class looks like a lot of fun.
Do remember however when they combine spells they have even more limited usage than if they had taken two devices.
If at 3rd level I have a device that grants me shield, shield of faith and bark skin that's all good -- but it's only going to work 3 times and if I push it I could easily end up with nothing for the next day.
Also I have nothing else to do anything with -- I got to find a different way to contribute to the party since I burned all my special stuff just having some AC for 3 fights.
And since Artificers have 3/4s BaB and get every magic-related feat they could ever want as a bonus feat, they can easily spend all of their feats on having something to do when their 7/day, effective CL 20, empowered delayed blast fireball that can optionally be split to hit three separate areas runs out.
I can see the class being a bit limited in usefulness for the first 5 or so levels, but once you get up there in levels it becomes horribly overpowered.
And since Artificers have 3/4s BaB and get every magic-related feat they could ever want as a bonus feat, they can easily spend all of their feats on having something to do when their 7/day, effective CL 20, empowered delayed blast fireball that can optionally be split to hit three separate areas runs out.
1. They can't empower their weird science since that's out of level range.
2. They don't get access to Delay blast fireball.
3. At CL 20 they'll be able to use it 11 times a day.
4. Yes they can use the metamagics on the items they can make *(YaY they can make items -- anyone can not a bit deal) but they burn out their wealth doing so.
5. IF they want to really use those items (and make those items) they'll be taking skill focus in both spellcraft and use magic device.
I expect at least 4~5 fights a day. That's the recommendation from the people above and anything less tends to skew everything towards the casters.
Especially since the average fight will still run under 5 minutes at the longest (50 rounds -- if you can't get it done and aren't dead in 50 rounds both you and your DM are extremely... off). 8 hours of rest, 1 hour of memorizing stuff, 3 hours for the meals/breaking up and setting up camp/bathroom breaks etc, still leaves 12 hours in a day. A fight every 2~3 isn't an insane amount of combat.
Personally I would want more feats like spell focus or spell penetration since they have nothing along those lines to actually help them do anything.
The biggest thing I would "fault" the designer on is not spelling out how the item's DC is set.
Besides if this class is giving you problems because he might actually get use out of damage spells, then I hate to see how you handle the bard when he casts haste, good hope, and then inspires courage all in the same round, or the wizard when he time stops quicken time stops.
In the end this guy has nothing that can't already be done in a game already.
1. They can't empower their weird science since that's out of level range.
2. They don't get access to Delay blast fireball.
3. At CL 20 they'll be able to use it 11 times a day.
4. Yes they can use the metamagics on the items they can make *(YaY they can make items -- anyone can not a bit deal) but they burn out their wealth doing so.
5. IF they want to really use those items (and make those items) they'll be taking skill focus in both spellcraft and use magic device.
Thank you for missing my point entirely. At level 11, the Artificer can put three Fireballs into one invention. Using that invention once, as a standard action, and targeting all three fireballs at the same target, will deal 30d6 damage to that target. That is the same damage that a 20th level wizard does with an empowered delay blast fireball. You will never convince me that being able to do that 7 times a day at level 11 is balanced. A 20th level specialist wizard might be able to do that 6 times a day, since that is effectively a 9th level spell.
To prevent economy of action from getting crazy I might disallow combined inventions at all, honestly. That does limit the class a bit, but being able to cast up to 4th level on EVERY spell list (so every ranger spell, every paladin spell, 2/3rds of the bard spells, etc) is pretty potent, and they do get a huge number of uses per day.
Actually, the uses per day is another thing I would want to change. Making it based on your class level leaves you with far too few uses at low levels and far too many at high levels. I'd make it more flat, like 1+INT modifier uses per day; that also brings a primary attribute into the class. If you go with that limit on uses per day and disallow combining multiple spells into one invention, you could possibly rewrite the spell progression to allow up to 5th level spells at high levels.
I would also make the UMD check to exceed the use limit based on the level of the spell - say DC 20 + spell level.
If you really want combined inventions, they need to have an inherently lower number of uses per day. I would say -1 use per day per additional spell in the invention, at least. Then the check to gain additional uses could be something like DC 20 + combined spell level of all spells.
Exemplar, as I mentioned before, is also a terrible ability and should be replaced with something else.
To polish it off and make it a feel like a Pathfinder class, I'd standardize the HP to d8 and the skills to either 4+ or 6+, and tweak the levels abilities are gained at (possibly adding a new high level ability or two) so that the class doesn't have any dead levels - 17th is a particular offender, currently being a level in which the Artificer gets nothing but 1 extra 3rd level invention.
In short, I don't feel like there is a "quick fix" for the class, because it is so far out of balance in several directions - it really needs a full rewrite. I may actually be doing that as a pet project, because I really do like the flavor of the class.
Thank you for missing my point entirely. At level 11, the Artificer can put three Fireballs into one invention. Using that invention once, as a standard action, and targeting all three fireballs at the same target, will deal 30d6 damage to that target. That is the same damage that a 20th level wizard does with an empowered delay blast fireball. You will never convince me that being able to do that 7 times a day at level 11 is balanced. A 20th level specialist wizard might be able to do that 6 times a day, since that is effectively a 9th level spell.
Actually that is not effectively a 9th level spell.
Three castings means:
3 save throws
Energy resistance 3 times
Spell resistance 3 times
In this specific case it also means that the DC will be much lower than it would have been for the empowered delayed blast fireball (4 points lower minimum).
Also this is something a Wizard can just about do at 11th level too.
Lesser metamagic rod of Quicken spell
Empowered Fireball
So he casts his empowered fireball then quickens a regular fireball = 25d6 of damage.
Heck if he's feeling frogy he could have his familiar then activate another fireball from a staff (with the appropriate use magic device check).
Also the bard at level 11 can get off the (equivalent) of three 3rd level spells off at the same time too. Again with the lesser metamagic rod he can cast haste, the move action his bardic music and still cast good hope with his standard action, netting a +5 to hit +4 to damage +2 to saves (+3 on reflex saves) +1 to AC + 1 to initiative, and an extra attack for his allies that full attack.
The fighter at level 11 can easily down any opponent in range of his longbow in a single round all day -- but that's not over powered (is it?).
In the end I would be more worried if the Artificer instead had it throw up a haste, stinking cloud, slow combo than the three fireballs.
Maybe I'm wrong here but I was under the impression that if the device is built so it fires 3 fireballs at once (as opposed to pulling the trigger 3 times for one fireball each time), then that (the former) is the spell effect and thus gets only 1 save etc no?
You pull the trigger once, but it's still three spell effects.
just like if the item in question cast Shield, Shield of Faith and Barkskin all at once. Three spells three effects, it would take 3 castings of dispel magic to get rid of all three.
The Fireball Blaster (TM) shoots 3 fire balls -- 3 fire balls means 3 saves, 3 x energy resistance and 3 x spell resistance. Just because they all come out at once doesn't mean they aren't seperate effects.
Another example:
Lets say your device does lightning bolt and fireball at the same time. Just because your foe is immune to electricity doesn't mean the fire ball doesn't hurt him just because it was cast at the same time as the lightning bolt.
Fortunately the S/SOF/BS combo really doesn't offer anything the PCs won't already have access to on a regular basis. It just offers one character a quicker means to get it off -- and in exchange for not simply using equipment he's down three spells for his weird science stuff.
After all he could just use a heavy shield, ring of protection (or a scroll of protection from alignment) and amulet of natural armor -- his bonuses aren't going to be higher than anyone elses -- and honestly most buffs last long enough that getting them up before combat isn't too difficult.
Well the caster can easily do it in two rounds and Barkskin again lasts long enough to be cast once in a dungeon (at 10 minutes a level we got 30 minutes at caster level 3 alone).
On the two weapon fighting front -- well shields make great weapons, and the alchemist is already capable of handing out extracts of shield to people to use (meaning in one round he could cast shield and enlarge person on someone -- including himself if he wanted).
At level 3 the S/SOF/BS is going to be usable 3 times a day, and only offers a +8 bonus -- something multiple classes can do in one round already (paladins, wizards with familiars, alchemists for example).
This is instead of having the ability to use each of those individually three times a day, or to use other spells instead. You've used up all your weird science for AC.
The alchemist can craft an extract of shield. Drink the shield extract use the accelerated drinker trait from Devils of Cheliax to drink a potion of something that adds 4 to AC. One round +8 To AC.
A third level paladin can drink a potion of barkskin (+4) then activate his smite evil to get his Cha to AC -- he can not do this three times a day though.
The wizard can cast mage armor at the start of the cave (or extended mage armor earlier) then cast shield later on -- then have his familiar cast protection from alignment from a scroll on to him that's +6 in one round + 4 from the mage armor = +10. That's IF the wizard doesn't simply cast Mirror Image.
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First things first: the Artificer actually isn't fan content. It was released in the Tome of Secrets by Adamant Entertainment, which was published literally at the same time as the release of Pathfinder (I'm pretty sure Tome of Secrets debuted at GenCon at the same time as Pathfinder). This likely the source of all the errors, though there still are a ton of kinda stupid errors (since when is inflict light wounds a second level spell? really?) Anywho, to address the questions regarding the differing target types (combining inflict light wounds with lightning bolt) in the book's pdf, it does say you have to make a touch attack to use the inflict spell.
Personally, I love the intent of this class, but I am definitely modifying it before I offer it as a choice to my players for my upcoming campaign.
Accelerated drinker is a trait -- not a feat -- yeah we probably won't see eye to eye on this one.
Overall I see this class as a one trick pony -- yes that trick is generally rather useful -- but they'll never really do anything that has the same "umpf" as a full attacking fighter, or "wow" as an 11th level mage (of any flavor) in my opinion -- it's the magical equivalent to the rogue in my view.
Again my largest complaint is the lack of explanation on how to set DC's for the weird science abilities.
I think you are right that mixed inventions are not inherently overpowered, Abraham. However I think the number of times they can be used per day IS. Also, the more inventions you mix the crazier it gets as action economy goes through the roof. Mixed inventions are basically giving you Quicken Spell for free, so regardless of how much you argue that other classes could do the same, you are getting multiple +4 to spell level effects at almost no cost - not even the Swift action Quicken Spell normally requires.
In any case I am currently rewriting the class, Hockey_Hippie, just to see what I come up with. I can't promise the result will be balanced, but I can promise it will be more balanced than the current version, since less balanced would be pretty much impossible. :)
As far as exceeding the uses per day goes, I go back and forth on that ability. I don't want to cut abilities from the class too much but you are right that finding a way to balance it is tricky. The massive number of uses per day it gets is basically the class's main feature, in my opinion.
As far as the hit die goes - Every core class with 3/4s BaB has a d8 hit die, it has nothing to do with the skills (which I think make more sense at 6+ as well).
I also agree that having access to multiple spell lists is an important feature of the class, although for my writeup I am limiting them to Cleric and Wizard spells, with a class feature that lets them learn a few spells from other lists. That avoids wonkyness such as being able to get Lesser Restoration as a 1st level spell.
Yeah I know it's a bit more than quicken spell... but I also consider the following:
Maximum spell available is 4... 4 + 4 = 8. Even if we up it another level for being a better quicken spell that's only a 9, which is equal to the wizard's best... but not quite because we are still only taking about 4th level and under spell effects.
Over all the Inventions and ability to mix the spells/ cast them all at once is the class power of this class -- it's the only thing it really gets that is unique, or remotely powerful. Making large (or even some small) changes to the class could quickly render it pointless and useless.
In retrospect I think that there could be something to the thought that the inventions might get too many uses a day -- however the Wizard can quickly top 100 spells per day himself if he tries.
(5 per spell level over 0 = 45 + 24 from intelligence = 69 castings before pearls of power or staves and the like)
The maximum uses per day the artificer could currently have (if he makes an individual invention for each spell level he can do one for) is 220 uses of 20 spells 4th level and under.
If instead he does 3~4 spells per invention he gets significantly less uses: 66~55 uses a day at level 20.
At that level yeah it's probably enough... but I'm not completely convinced that it doesn't wash out at the lower levels.
Had a thought that could be quite the compromise:
The artificer still gets to combined spells how he wants but:
1. He can only have 1/2 his class level in spell levels in one weird science invention at a time.
2. He can only have 1 combined invention + 1 per 3 class levels.
This means by level 18 he could have 9 spell levels in a single invention, and have a total number of combined inventions of 7.
That's 3 x 3rd level spells, or 4x 2nd level + 1 first, or 2 x 4th level + 1 first... etc -- to a total of 7 combined effect inventions at 18th level...
At fourth level he could have two inventions with 2 spell levels each in them (so basically two inventions that cast 2 first level spells each).