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Hi.
Having just started my first grappling character in PF, the grappling dex modifier conflict is puzzling. Table 8-6: Armor Class modifiers (p. 195) notes that a grappling creature loses its Dex bonus. This is in conflict with the grappled condition, which is only -4 dex and loss of threatening. As others have noted, the footnote in the table for losing dex on a grapple would appear to be a relic of 3.5/SRD. Does anyone know if this be fixed in the next PRD/Core revision?
Thanks,
Jake
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Note that this is all about point of origin.
For table 8-6
Player one is grappling with Player two.
Player three comes along and decides to attack player one. For player three, player one is flat-footed.
However, player one has the grappled condition, so player two gets the benefits of -4 dex when dealing with player one. Also, for abilities that use dex *such as reflex saves* player one is at a disadvantage.
Or, in other words, if you're grappling someone, apply the grappled condition. In addition to that, anyone other than the guy you're grappling is going to treat you as flat-footed, since you're too busy wrestling with someone to protect yourself adequately.
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Note that this is all about point of origin.
For table 8-6
Player one is grappling with Player two.
Player three comes along and decides to attack player one. For player three, player one is flat-footed.
However, player one has the grappled condition, so player two gets the benefits of -4 dex when dealing with player one. Also, for abilities that use dex *such as reflex saves* player one is at a disadvantage.
Or, in other words, if you're grappling someone, apply the grappled condition. In addition to that, anyone other than the guy you're grappling is going to treat you as flat-footed, since you're too busy wrestling with someone to protect yourself adequately.
Wow! I was going to say that was a holdover from 3.5 that should have been eliminated, but looking at the table it does say "Grappling (but attacker is not)". So that means you can sneak attack a grappling character in PF! There is an RPG.net thread I need to update to correct myself.
This does mean its even more deadly to grapple in PF as your AC will either be devoid of a DEX bonus or suffer a penalty for DEX (whichever is worse).
E.g. a character with Dex 20/+5 would lose its +5 bonus to AC, and thus AC would be 10 + Armour bonus. A character with Dex of 12/+1 would have a modified Dex of 8/-1 when grappling and as such AC would be 10 -1 + Armour Bonus.
It would have been nice if this had been mentioned in the Grappled condition.
I hate, hate, hate bits of rules that only appear as an entry in a table on a separate page and not in the main article. The rulebook should NOT be an Easter egg hunt!
I just cannot believe that it is both flat footed and the condition penalties - whichever is worse. Too complicated in play. I can do the math in my head quickly enough, but it would be prohibitive for a certain percentage of players and annoying in general.
Furthermore, why bother to specify that pinned opponents are flat footed? Why not just make a general condition for both pinned and grappled if they were so similar?
Well, I will take the doubters perspective and just work on getting my opponents into a pin until I get definitive confirmation - I am going to side with the main article on this one.
I hate, hate, hate bits of rules that only appear as an entry in a table on a separate page and not in the main article. The rulebook should NOT be an Easter egg hunt!
I am convinced the text on table 8-6 is an error. If it was intended to remain as a rule Jason would have included it in the grapple rules.
I will apply the table text for OP until an errata or official ruling is made. For my home games I am not so sure though.
As often as it comes up, I can't believe this hasn't yet been clarified by the devs.