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Here's the situation.
The party is walking through a forest under normal light conditions. A Deeper Darkness spell is cast around them dropping the light level by 2 creating darkness.
After the surprise round and part of round 1 of combat, it's the paladins turn. He casts Light of Purity from the campaign setting which acts as the Daylight spell.
After a few more rounds of combat, Deeper Darkness was cast again around the party creating darkness once again. This is where the debate began.
--It is my understanding and thus my ruling that when daylight was cast, it dispelled the Deeper Darkness, but that it too was gone as well. This would revert the light conditions back to normal.
The argument was that because of the Daylight spell, it should have been bright light, and when Deeper Darkness was cast the second time, it would have dropped it to dim light.
Are the Light/Dark spells consumed when cast within the opposing condition? I don't see how casting Daylight takes it from darkness all the way up to bright light. The bright light is only for non-magical darkness, correct?
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Deeper Darkness would also dispel the Daylight effect. So you would be back to darkness either way.
Edit: While the spells don't explicitly say so, I'd say the caster of Daylight (and then the caster of Deeper Darkness) would have had to make a dispel check similar to that of Dispel Magic in order to successfully dispel the other spell. If unsuccessful, the effects would both continue to function, and would negate eachother where they overlap.
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I am in a discussion with someone on another thread about this, but I think it belongs here under "Rules".
Suppose someone casts Deeper Darkness in an area with dim light. I then rub Oil of Daylight on my shield. If I understand the rule correctly, the Daylight spell would not dispel the Deeper Darkness spell, but would merely counter the spell, so the dim lighting condition would prevail where the two spells' areas of effect overlap.
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Here's the situation.
The party is walking through a forest under normal light conditions. A Deeper Darkness spell is cast around them dropping the light level by 2 creating darkness.
After the surprise round and part of round 1 of combat, it's the paladins turn. He casts Light of Purity from the campaign setting which acts as the Daylight spell.
After a few more rounds of combat, Deeper Darkness was cast again around the party creating darkness once again. This is where the debate began.
--It is my understanding and thus my ruling that when daylight was cast, it dispelled the Deeper Darkness, but that it too was gone as well. This would revert the light conditions back to normal.
The argument was that because of the Daylight spell, it should have been bright light, and when Deeper Darkness was cast the second time, it would have dropped it to dim light.
Are the Light/Dark spells consumed when cast within the opposing condition? I don't see how casting Daylight takes it from darkness all the way up to bright light. The bright light is only for non-magical darkness, correct?
To better answer and understand this, What spell level does Light of Purity count as? I ask this since it would have to be 3rd level or greater to dis-spell the deeper darkness.
(sorry, I don't know that spell, so I do not have the info on it).If it is, then I read it this way.
Deeper darkness cast.
Light of Purity cast (dispelling the deeper darkness, bringing the light back to normal, dim, lighting)
Deeper darkness cast again (bringing it back to dark)
When a spell counters or dispels another on, the counter spell is no longer active either. Similar to how if you cast haste on someone who is slowed, it just removes the slow, and does not haste them also. ( at least that is my understanding)
IF it is not at least a 3rd level spell, then it will do nothing at all to the deeper darkness.
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I am in a discussion with someone on another thread about this, but I think it belongs here under "Rules".
Suppose someone casts Deeper Darkness in an area with dim light. I then rub Oil of Daylight on my shield. If I understand the rule correctly, the Daylight spell would not dispel the Deeper Darkness spell, but would merely counter the spell, so the dim lighting condition would prevail where the two spells' areas of effect overlap.
Per the PRD at least:
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.
It counters or dispels.
the funny part is haste and slow say:
Slow counters and dispels haste.
Haste dispels and counters slow.
Suppose someone casts Deeper Darkness in an area with dim light. I then rub Oil of Daylight on my shield. If I understand the rule correctly, the Daylight spell would not dispel the Deeper Darkness spell, but would merely counter the spell, so the dim lighting condition would prevail where the two spells' areas of effect overlap.
This is what you're looking for in the description of the Daylight spell:
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
It does not dispel the Deeper Darkness as Daylight was not cast in the same area.
About the OP's question:
Spells with Opposite Effects
Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell's description.
No dispel check needed.
Well put Fozbek.
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Countering means you can use it with the counterspell readied action to counter whatever other spell. Using a spell in this manner has no other effect than to counter the target spell.
Dispelling, on the other hand, means it removes the other spell's active effects in addition to applying its own. In other words, if you cast daylight in an area where deeper darkness is present, the deeper darkness is dispelled and the daylight is active. Note that it only does this when cast, however; bringing a daylight spell into an area of magical darkness will just cancel each other out.
I see no where when it states that the daylight stays active. Can you please point me to that in the book?
My understanding is that it counters it if brought into the area with it (thus letting the normal light levels prevail, until one of the two spells ends), and dispels it when cast in it (thus causing both spells to go away and the normal light level prevail). Part of that is matching to what the spell description states:
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
But from what you said, if you have slow cast on you, and someone else casts haste on you, you get the full effects of the haste, and the slow is gone. I view it as you have used the spell haste to counter-spell (and thus also dispel) the slow spell.
I view the light and dark spells the same way. mixing two of them that are equal level ends up with the prevailing light levels. If brought into the area, it is temporary, if cast in the area, it is a dispel (and thus both gone).
The whole "counter and dispel" thing is a little wonky. The counter part is clear, the dispel part is never spelled out.
If the paladin has a daylight spell, it doesn't matter WHAT the level of the darkness spell is: The light level returns to its ordinary forest levels.
This really sucks for characters under ground, because the normal ambiant lighting conditions of a cave is damned dark. So if someone cranks out a deeper darkness, you need to dispel it and then get a light source up.
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I view it as you have used the spell haste to counter-spell (and thus also dispel) the slow spell.That isn't how countering works in Pathfinder.
Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn't always work.
That's how countering works in Pathfinder. [Light] and [Darkness] spells have specific language that allows them to be used as counterspells to equal or lower level spells of their opposite. So do haste and slow.
When you use a spell to counterspell, neither spell actually comes into effect; the energy of one spell exactly counters the energy of the other spell and they both fizzle.
Dispelling is different from countering. Dispelling can only happen when one spell is already in effect (because spells that don't exist cannot be dispelled) and you're casting another spell. [i]Dispel magic is an instantaneous duration spell that can dispell (almost) all other spells, but the only reason it vanishes after casting is because its duration is instantaneous. Daylight's duration is 10 minutes/level, and there's no indication whatsoever that using it to dispel changes the duration at all.
okay, so then it falls into this section of the daylight spell:
"Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect."
And you get the normal light for the area, and not the effects of the daylight spell.
And thus another casting of deeper darkness does nothing but add another duration for deeper darkness that will come into effect when the daylight spell ends.
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The whole "counter and dispel" thing is a little wonky. The counter part is clear, the dispel part is never spelled out.
If the paladin has a daylight spell, it doesn't matter WHAT the level of the darkness spell is: The light level returns to its ordinary forest levels.
This really sucks for characters under ground, because the normal ambiant lighting conditions of a cave is damned dark. So if someone cranks out a deeper darkness, you need to dispel it and then get a light source up.
but it does matter, if the paladin version of daylight (in this case "Light of Purity" is only level 2 for some reason, it cannot counter a deeper darkness (a level 3 spell normally).
It even states that in the daylight spell description:
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.
edit: I found the ability, it is out of the Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting
It is an SU ability that emulates the daylight spell.
This brings up another thing, SU abilities, per the PRD: A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.
So, if the deeper darkness was a SU ability, then does another SU ability counter it? And does an SU ability counter a spell?
Daylight has a funny clause in it so that the levels don't matter.
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
This means that higher level, lower level, or heightened darkness spells don't actually matter to the daylight either way: daylight stops them from working and the light levels return to normal.
This is really annoying, because the daylight technically doesn't stop the darkness spells from shutting off torches, and you're left with the ambient light levels.. which is usually dark. You need a heightened light or dancing lights spell to actually shine light in a deeper darkness.