I would be curious if any monsters in the bestiary or even recent pathfinder adventures, would break the mold in regards to "rules", as that starts to slide over into what people consider DM fiat (or game developer). And the only compromise I can think of in regards to playing it closer to the book and allowing the DM some figit room, is to state all encounters would be pre-planned and written and let the dice fall where they may. However, I would suffer poorly in this model, as I like to modify things on the fly (within reason) or even make things up, but the players know this, so no loss on our part.
Yes, we need to follow the rules of physics and immersion in our highly abstracted combat rules :|
If your group would walk away because you gave a BBEG extra flair, I pity you. You're the DM! Excert some control! Tell the players "Yes, I'm bending the rules. It's going to make the game more fun and exciting. Trust me. If your players aren't trusting you, you have much bigger problems them some rule bending.
Here's the problem - all the bonuses in the world won't help alter the action economy. Giving them max HP just makes the combat a grind. Higher AC and saving throws? Same thing. "Oh boy, another round of combat where we all just miss a lot." Worse then that, AC and saving throws are entirely binary. What, your party is all buffed? That extra AC is now meaningless.
Hell, try to think back and name that movie or fantasy book where one bad guy fights alone against four heroes all at the same time. It doesn't happen. It's always either one on one, or the bad guy has a bunch of minions come out to fight with him, and it's like that for a reason.
The reason is, there's nothing exciting about the bad guy being rushed by four heroes, knocked to the ground, and then kicked until he dies.
|
Well, if all else fails, let the monster move more then once ;p
Or delete the entry for the hp's on the monsters sheet. Have the monster die when it's beaten up the players enough but no so much as to wipe them out. There problem solved without the need for introducing abritary multiplication factors!
;)
Well, if all else fails, let the monster move more then once ;pOr delete the entry for the hp's on the monsters sheet. Have the monster die when it's beaten up the players enough but no so much as to wipe them out. There problem solved without the need for introducing abritary multiplication factors!
;)
I used to this back in high school, when I was playing 2nd ed. I did it until I got called on it (someone was suspicious and secretly kept track of how much damage the party did). It's not a bad strategy in some situations, but I certainly wouldn't want word to get out that some DM's do this.
Shhhh
Players might be listening.
I used to this back in high school, when I was playing 2nd ed. I did it until I got called on it (someone was suspicious and secretly kept track of how much damage the party did).Well, if all else fails, let the monster move more then once ;pOr delete the entry for the hp's on the monsters sheet. Have the monster die when it's beaten up the players enough but no so much as to wipe them out. There problem solved without the need for introducing abritary multiplication factors!
;)
My players ALWAYS do this. Especially against a boss. I've lost count of how many times I've gotten "We've dealt XYZ damage to this guy! How is he still alive!?"
The best solution? Don't do solo monsters.
;)
In an upcoming encounter, the group will face off against a crazy mage thing with lots of animated objects. That way, everybody gets to have fun and isn't limited by their abilities or preferences.
But I'm not one to threadjack. Except...
Smurf!
Sorry. Sorry! Stop hitting me!
Sorry. Sorry! Stop hitting me!
Not until you apologize for being horribly injured!
Sorry. Sorry! Stop hitting me!Not until you apologize for being horribly injured!
Should I apologize for my mushroom being shoved smurf my smurf?
Hey, it's not threadsmurfing if people respond! Well, it is, so...*Runs away*
Smurf you! *Gives Nurn The Smurf*
Okay, I'm smurf. Uh, I mean 'done'.
|
If the monster is a melee creature, usually just upping the CR works, but for bad guy wizards, they might as well be pinatas if they are solo.
I'm not sure that is really the case.
There are many many many ways to boost a BBEG encounter without adding templates (not that adding templates is bad, I happen to LOVE templates as they add flavor and make the BBEG less predictable).
A party of 4 vs a Wizard based BBEG can still be a heck of a challenge.
First, the wizard is very likely already prepared for the arrival of the PCs. He already has all of his lower level buffs running.
He has chosen the terrain. Rough or zig-zagging terrain so the tank can't charge. Obstacles to hide behind to prevent line of effect. Traps for the fool that runs across the room without checking first.
He has scrolls already to go. Wall of Force just inside the door before the PCs arrive. Drop a Summoned monster or Summoned Swarm in there. Earthquake. PCs get through the wall... teleport before they are in range.
He's now in the balcony and watching the PCs looking for him. Drop more spells on them. Occupy them with Summoned Monsters. PCs find the stairs up... time to teleport.
He has healing potions and other buff potions scattered and hidden away in secret compartments and hidden nooks.
None of this works if you choose to have the fight in a one level 20 foot x 20 foot room though.
Nothing is more fun than having the PCs loose sight of the BBEG and then drawing them to a fight in a lava pool or cavern with falling stalactites when the BBEG they fight is actually an illusion and he is scrying from afar laughing.
Now take a well thought out room, with areas specifically designed to take advantage of Cover and Concealment, Difficult Terrain, Height Advantages, Traps, Secret Doors etc, and now add in a Template and the fight becomes downright scary!
Compare to a stock wizard in a 20 x 20 room, and he's dead in 1-2 rounds I'm sure.
Yes, we need to follow the rules of physics and immersion in our highly abstracted combat rules :|
Yes, we do. Obviously you don't, however, since I detect some sarcasm in your post. That's fine for you, and it's also fine for us.
Do you think we don't know that our game system is highly abstracted? Are you operating under the suspicion that some of us are unable to detect the level of abstraction in D&D/Pathfinder combat?
Of course I know our system is abstract. And so do all my players. But one of the things they can count on is that whatever I do to them is provvided for in this abstract system.
For my players, it is a game. Like chess, there are rules. They must operate within the rules to overcome challenges. My players enjoy the mental gaming aspects of overcoming the challenges using the existing rules structure. Then they succeed, it is very much like they just won a game of chess.
For that to happen, I must also play by the rules. If I suddenly start moving my queen twice, or three times, they will know that I am cheating. I am breaking the rules to beat them. I am not playing fair, nor setting up a challenge that they can fairly beat within the rules. Yes, sure, eventually they win, but they don't get that satisfaction that they solved the problem, overcame the challenge, and beat the scenario.
All they get is that I changed the rules, cheated, and dicked with them until I was ready to stop dicking with them and let them win.
My players wouldn't appreciate that.
Nor would I when I'm a player.
If your group would walk away because you gave a BBEG extra flair, I pity you.
You're not talking about extra flair.
You're talkking about yanking the rug out from under them. Telling them that you're going to cheat, and keep on cheating, and pretty much do whatever you want, screwing with them in a game of DM cat-and-mouse until you get tired of it and let them win.
And they won't learn anything from beating the current bad guy that they can take with them to the next encounter, because that will be a whole different game of "flair", er, uh, cat-and-mouse where you'll cheat again until you're tired of it.
That's not flair. That's not a game. That's just a DM doing what he wants, when he wants, and everyone else has to deal with it.
Or leave. Which is exactly what some people posting on this thread would do.
You're the DM! Excert some control! Tell the players "Yes, I'm bending the rules. It's going to make the game more fun and exciting. Trust me."
Shouldn't there be a a "Bwu Ha Ha Ha" after that statement?
Really.
"I'm the DM. I will do what I want. I'm in control! I won't play by the rules. I don't need no freaking rules because I'm in control! And you'll like it! You'll play MY game MY way and like it because it will be more fun and exciting FOR ME! Bwu Ha Ha Ha! Trust me, it's all good!"
No thanks. Not for me. Not even when I'm the DM.
If your players aren't trusting you, you have much bigger problems them some rule bending.
Wrong.
If your players aren't trusting you, then it's probably because you are doing all that stuff to them. Power-tripping, control-freak, rule-breaking DMs who do what they want with no regard for the game system are the kinds of DMs that players can't trust.
No, I am not saying YOU or anyone else are doing that - I'm only saying that you are advocating that a DM should do this stuff, and in so doing, make himself or herself become a DM nobody can trust.
Let me take your entire post and make one comment to it.
I'm letting the BBEG end of the game boss move more then once.
I'm not on an insane power trip, I'm not yanking out the rug, I'm not laughing and mocking them. Jesus, are you having flashbacks to 'Nam or PTSD or something?
I'm letting the final boss at the crescendo of the adventure move more then once.
Seriously.
I also wouldn't go for different rules/additional actions/"elite" WoW monster stuff. Not my thing, I like sim/realism even in my "abstract fantasy blee blee blee."
Max hit points, sure. The guys with less than max hit points died out before they got to lead their own band of cultists/bandits/whatever.
Other than that, what you can do is - especially in the case of NPCs - make them higher level but don't min-max them as much. It's easy to not give them a 20 in their primary stat and then those save DCs don't get worse, but they have more hit points, BAB/CMD, saves, and other survivability factors. Make them bigger but sand off the sharp end a little.
Haha, here come the MMORPG references.
Like clockwork.
Clearly nobody has ever fudged the rules to allow for BBEGs to be more powerful before WoW was invented. Ever.
Haha, here come the MMORPG references.
Like clockwork.
Clearly nobody has ever fudged the rules to allow for BBEGs to be more powerful before WoW was invented. Ever.
Well, Everquest did. And so did Asheron's Call. And before that, Ultima Online. And before that, Baldur's Gate. And before that, the Gold-box D&D games.
And before that, Donkey Kong really gave an unfair advantage to the big monkey. I mean, come on, Mario didn't get an infinite supply of barrels to throw back, did he?
And before that, well, actually, Pong was pretty fair to both players...
And while all that was going on, I was DMing D&D games (yes, even in the Pong days) without breaking the fundamental game rule system for any of my bad guys.
fudging the rules? the rules are merely guidelines. ever hear of Rule zero? a Dungeon Master can ignore rulings to accommodate a more desirable result. look at more than just the GM, Look at the players too. neither party would likely be impressed if the BBEG died in a single round.
but anyway, here are a few suggestions that don't involve changing existing rules, only one of them involves a new rule. and it is something that needs a rule.
most DM's (and most players too) are so "blind" that they forget many things that they could be doing. fighters "do" have more options than "I full attack". seeing these options requires more effort than most players (or Dungeon Masters) are willing to give. combat manuevers are a good example, a pouch filled with dust, a useful item that is freely accessible anywhere. no dungeon master should be able to deny you that pouch of dust. really good to have. it's like single target blinding powder, but free. the manipulation of doors, rearranging of furniture, creating on the spot makeshift weaponry, setting up flanks, false retreat, faking death, and many others things, oh, wait, anyone can use these options. and for melee types, all this amounts to a lot more than "I Full Attack" and most of these options i mention involve either exploiting the planned terrain or using freely accessible goods you can find anywhere. i admit that most of my group is too hack and slash to think of this, including my dungeon master. and i get stuck dumbing down to thier level of thinking and shoehorned into being the healer. my group really likes to only look at thier stat block.
these options i mention can be used by both a player and GM alike and are not rules fudging. some of these things don't even have assigned rules yet.
heres my custom rule for the pouch of dust idea i used. (i'm not a DM, i don't have the storytelling skill yet)
Pouch of dust. price free, requirements, an empty pouch and a good source of dust. crafting time, 1d6 hours.
special rules, in place of any one of your attacks for the round, you make a CMB check against the CMD of your target. if it succeeds, the target is blinded until the end of your next turn. the manuever uses the base attack bonus of the iterative attack that you sacrificed. you must have the pouch in your hand to throw it. retrieving a stored pouch of dust if a move action and unsealing the drawstring is a swift action.
And while all that was going on, I was DMing D&D games (yes, even in the Pong days) without breaking the fundamental game rule system for any of my bad guys.
I'm not sure how, given as, back in the Pong days, the D&D rules ere more or less just a paper that said "Oh god just BS it all" ;p
That's the thing. Fudging or making up rules as you go...that's not MMORPG. That's as old school as it gets. It's the new editions, it's 4e, that makes rules into this ironclad, balanced on a razor's edge, can never be broken kinda thing.
It's the new editions, it's 4e, that makes rules into this ironclad, balanced on a razor's edge, can never be broken kinda thing.
Oh, you did NOT just go there???
That's it, you invoked the 4e edition war on me? Why, why, you must be a nazi! I invoke Hitler on you!
(So, now what's left? Where do we go after 4e and Hitler?)
It's the new editions, it's 4e, that makes rules into this ironclad, balanced on a razor's edge, can never be broken kinda thing.Oh, you did NOT just go there???
That's it, you invoked the 4e edition war on me? Why, why, you must be a nazi! I invoke Hitler on you!
(So, now what's left? Where do we go after 4e and Hitler?)
Gentlemen, I started this thread to hear options and some suggestions on how to make a BBEG more fun to run against whole party without TPK or letting the party win way too easily. In certain situations you are both right, but can't we just return to the game?
Pouch of dust. price free, requirements, an empty pouch and a good source of dust. crafting time, 1d6 [b]hours[b].
Umm... seriously? Shouldn't that be rounds?
Aside from that good point though! You'd love Iron Heroes IMO.
I dont really see a problem with the action economy.. I mean it is generally the only thing that keeps players from getting killed by the obviously more powerful BBEG.. well that and good tactics.. even the action economy won't save them with crap tactics.
It's the new editions, it's 4e, that makes rules into this ironclad, balanced on a razor's edge, can never be broken kinda thing.Oh, you did NOT just go there???
That's it, you invoked the 4e edition war on me? Why, why, you must be a nazi! I invoke Hitler on you!
(So, now what's left? Where do we go after 4e and Hitler?)
...What.
I'm not invoking edition war on anyone :U
I'm stating that, as editions go on, the rules become for formulized and rigid. One of the complaints about 3.5 was the whole "Rule for every occasion." I play 3.x, Pathfinder, and 4e. 4e is far more rules and exception based.
In general, earlier editions have less rules. Newer editions have more rules.
On a side note to make BBEG more durable without being overpowering I often add non-associated levels, and I even treat multi-class in the same way.
for example a lvl 16 wizard CR 15, I want to toughen him up a bit but really dont want to make him much more powerful. I could give him maybe 2 monk levels upping to 16 (treasure would be equivalent to a lvl 17 wizard most likely) it gives him some unarmored bonus to AC, better saves, evasion and some minor fancy stuff altogether still way less powerful than a wizard casting 9th lvl spells.
Other than that I mostly use the environment and the BBEG's familarity with the terrain to make the encounter more challenging, sometimes I start the encounter with a single BBEG and have some minions arrive in the 3rd round or so forcing the players to adapt.
BBEG can also trigger traps by moving on pressure plates to balance the economy of actions, I made a memorable encounter with the party cornering a ringleader in his base of operations, him using spring attack and hidden traps, that coupled with the players triggering traps by accident made it very challenging in a fun way. (basically a fancy environment)
I did an encounter with an illusionist in his 'room of smoke and mirrors' once as well..
A medusa with shadowdancer levels could be interesting as well..
A red dragon filled in a smoke filled chamber will be very challenging played in a clever way, breath weapon will hurt if they stick together, they will have a hard time coordinating if they are spread out, win - win for the dragon.
My players ALWAYS do this. Especially against a boss. I've lost count of how many times I've gotten "We've dealt XYZ damage to this guy! How is he still alive!?"I used to this back in high school, when I was playing 2nd ed. I did it until I got called on it (someone was suspicious and secretly kept track of how much damage the party did).Well, if all else fails, let the monster move more then once ;pOr delete the entry for the hp's on the monsters sheet. Have the monster die when it's beaten up the players enough but no so much as to wipe them out. There problem solved without the need for introducing abritary multiplication factors!
;)
That is easily side stepped with a cryptic reference to damage reduction.
Player: We have done over 300 damage to this guy. How is he not dead?
DM: Did you account for his damage reduction?
Player: *incoherent mumbling*
It's the new editions, it's 4e, that makes rules into this ironclad, balanced on a razor's edge, can never be broken kinda thing.Oh, you did NOT just go there???
That's it, you invoked the 4e edition war on me? Why, why, you must be a nazi! I invoke Hitler on you!
(So, now what's left? Where do we go after 4e and Hitler?)
Okay... so this is an attempt to cool down a thread I have been following with a bit of humor relevant to this post. It's a parody, but nevertheless, I'd say NSFW and hopeful no one gets offended. This has been a good thread so far with interesting arguments on both sides, but I'm hoping it will continue without disintegrating into mudslinging. Thanks all, looking forward to more perspectives before dropping my 2 cents.
EDIT: In addition to NSFW the language can be offensive to some.
|
|
It's the new editions, it's 4e, that makes rules into this ironclad, balanced on a razor's edge, can never be broken kinda thing.Oh, you did NOT just go there???
That's it, you invoked the 4e edition war on me? Why, why, you must be a nazi! I invoke Hitler on you!
(So, now what's left? Where do we go after 4e and Hitler?)
You think undead should be Evil and put Paladins in no-win situations!