Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I want to confirm that I am running Improved Grab/Grapple correctly, and would appreciate if anyone can chime in on whether the following is correct.
Let's use an owlbear (a larger creature with improved grab) attacking a medium creature. The way I read the rules, the owlbear makes a claw attack (+8 to hit) and does 1d6+4 damage. Then, it immediately makes a grapple check (+14 CMB) against its opponent's CMD. If it succeeds, the opponent is grappled. Once it enters a grapple, the owlbear's attack action ends (so, if the second claw attack hits, the grapple is initiated and the bite attack is not resolved).
Once in the grapple, the owlbear can either make a grapple check to inflict its claw damage (using its CMB against the opponent's CMD) or it can take a full attack action (Using the attack bonus associated with the attack and with a -2 penalty for being in a grapple) to attempt to claw/claw/bite.
Is this correct?
I don't think a successful grapple check will end a full attack as you suggested above.
Also, if the owlbear chooses to make a full attack, the grapple ends because it didn't spend a standard action continuing the grapple.
There might be an exception if the owlbear had made the original grapple check at a -20 penalty, although it's not clear.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Thanks Hogarth. If the grapple is successful, how would you resolve the remaining attacks in the full attack action - using CMB or the attack bonus with the -2 penalty?
In regards to the standard action, does that mean the owlbear effectively sacrifices two of its three attacks to make a single attack at a higher bonus (and likely against a lower target number) and inflict the grappled status on its target?
I mock you and your iterative attacks.
OK, Grab is a little different then Grapple. This is the full text from the PRD below my comments.
The part about taking a -20 to the roll is really an RP thing for VERY VERY BIG stuff. Think King Kong where he makes a grab with just one hand. Most things grapple more like a bear hug where many limbs are involved.
Once a target is grappled you can make a standard Action to maintain the grapple and if you succeed you can do one of the things listed below the grab portion. So every round you can do auto damage after maintaining the grapple with a +5 roll. Alternately you can release the target as a free action... full attack... and then if you hit get your free grab to start the grapple again. Usually attacking with a light weapon or natural attack is done by the person being grappled... otherwise you just take the free auto damage. I hope this helps.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
From PRD on Grapple
...SNIP Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
SNIP...
|
Thanks Hogarth. If the grapple is successful, how would you resolve the remaining attacks in the full attack action - using CMB or the attack bonus with the -2 penalty?
In regards to the standard action, does that mean the owlbear effectively sacrifices two of its three attacks to make a single attack at a higher bonus (and likely against a lower target number) and inflict the grappled status on its target?
I'm fairly sure of my response, but there's totally a possibility that I'm incorrect. /disclaimer
When in a grapple, attacks are made at a -2 penalty. So, if you claw/claw/bite, and end up grappling with the first claw, then the other claw and bite would use their usual attack bonus with a -2 penalty.
If a creature begins its turn grappling another, he has to spend a standard action to "maintain the grapple" (CMB check against their CMD). This is made as usual, with the opponent's -4 penalty to Dex (due to being grappled) as well as a +5 to the grappling creature's CMB. In the same action as maintaining the grapple, the creature can attack with one attack (no attack vs. AC; if it maintains the grapple, it automatically hits).
Damn, ninja'd.
This is easier than we're all making it.
When it is not grappling, the owlbear can make a full attack. Claw, claw, bite. Resolve all attacks and damage. Then, if a claw hit, the owlbear can also initiate a grapple against that target. It's a free action that does not say that it must be immediate, or that it interrupts or prevents the creature's other attacks. So take that free action after resolving all attacks.
If you don't, then you're weakening your owlbear and you might as well bump it's CR down to a more accurate, lower number.
Now, when it IS grappling, it can either release the grapple and make a normal attack/move or full attack action, or it can use a standard action to maintain the grapple (don't forget the bonus +5 to this roll). If it successfully maintains the grapple, it applies its normal claw damage.
It cannot simply maintain the grapple and also make an attack (making an attack is an otption for the guy being grappled if he chooses not to try to escape - it is not an action for the owlbear that initiated the grapple).
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Thanks. Do you think it's tactically appropriate given an owlbear's intelligence for it to release a low AC foe and then resolve a new full attack action given that it still has a good chance of hitting and will likely re-grapple as part of the attack?
I guess I'm surprised that the decision between grappling and re-grappling has so many factors, particularly because creatures with improved grab tend to be pretty low intelligence and would seem likely to employ a pretty regular attack pattern.
Just because a beast is low INT does not mean it has not figured out the best way to get its meal. When a cat is fighting another cat it performs "combat" different then it does when fighting a mouse.
An Owl Bear fighting a dangerous and tough target is more likely to hold on and slowly kill it to keep itself safer... were as a target that is less of a threat and easier to hit it can "play with it" by full attacking then grab. Then drop it and start over for a quicker kill and practice/play.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Just because a beast is low INT does not mean it has not figured out the best way to get its meal. When a cat is fighting another cat it performs "combat" different then it does when fighting a mouse.
An Owl Bear fighting a dangerous and tough target is more likely to hold on and slowly kill it to keep itself safer... were as a target that is less of a threat and easier to hit it can "play with it" by full attacking then grab. Then drop it and start over for a quicker kill and practice/play.
Thanks. That description of the behavior helps a great deal. I was having trouble imagining why the owlbear would let go and perform a full attack action (and didn't want to say "it's not dumb, and the creature does it because it's the best tactic"), but describing it as "playing with" its prey is very useful.
|
Thanks. That description of the behavior helps a great deal. I was having trouble imagining why the owlbear would let go and perform a full attack action (and didn't want to say "it's not dumb, and the creature does it because it's the best tactic"), but describing it as "playing with" its prey is very useful.
If the owlbear does that attack action more than twice in a row, I believe RAW states that he is, indeed, playing with it.
Least that's what my father always warned me about.
Tell your players good luck! :)
(and thanks to the rest of you, as I was sheepishly wondering the same thing! ;) )
|
Contributor
|
Thanks Hogarth. If the grapple is successful, how would you resolve the remaining attacks in the full attack action - using CMB or the attack bonus with the -2 penalty?
What about just resolve the bite and one claw first? Assume the grab/grapple is initiated by the last claw? I've never been certain that the monster attacks must happen in the order listed in the monster full attack description. I've always house ruled that I (the monster) can use the attacks in any order I like.
EDIT: oops. Others answered this faster and better than I!
question on the rules
Sebastian! I would call you many many things but not an idiot!