I had a suggestion regarding the spell "Create Water."
As Paizo decided that "Create Water" is a 0-level spell instead of a 1st-level spell, the Effect should be changed to a static number, such as: "Creates 1 gallon of water."
My reasoning is that while 0-level spells often have variable ranges and durations, their effects are pretty much set. This would bring it in line with other 0-level spells.
In fact, it wouldn't be out of line to limit it to "Creates 1/2 gallon of water" per casting. The spell "Mage Hand" cannot move more than 5 pounds, and a gallon of water weighs about 8.3 pounds (I'd round down to 8 pounds for gaming purposes). At a 1/2 gallon (and about 4 pounds), that would place it beneath the weight limit imposed by "Mage Hand."
You're welcome.
If you go with the 1/2 gallon per casting, I'd also allow the water to be created inside a waterskin for simplicity.
I would go with 1 gallon. Mage hand is a more versatile spell than create water, so I can see create water having a slightly large effect than mage hand.
Good point.
I agree with having it create 1 gallon of water in an open container (as per the listed rules). I'd also allow the spell to create 1/2 gallon of water in a waterskin for versatility (after all, how many adventurers actually carry anything other than a few waterskins?).
Just trying to help improve the game we're all so passionate about.
I think that the folks at Paizo have done an excellent job overall, and I'm glad that they've put these messageboards up so that we gamers can help them improve the game even further.
Okay, first off: Paizo only decided not to change Create Water. It has been exactly the same since 3.0 Edition.
Second, you can already create water in a waterskin. "Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large".
But, to the point; I agree with your house rule. It is far too powerful an effect to be a 0-level spell. In fact, I think it should be reduced in effect, and increased in spell level. In my house rules, it simply does not exist below 2nd level spells.
Okay, first off: Paizo only decided not to change Create Water. It has been exactly the same since 3.0 Edition.
Second, you can already create water in a waterskin. "Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large".
But, to the point; I agree with your house rule. It is far too powerful an effect to be a 0-level spell. In fact, I think it should be reduced in effect, and increased in spell level. In my house rules, it simply does not exist below 2nd level spells.
Yes and no.
No, Paizo did not change the create water spell works exactly like it did in 3.0/3.5 when cast.
BUT...
Paizo did change all level 0 spells to have an unlimited number of casting per day. Create water is a level 0 spell. Ergo, they changed the create water spell.
I guess I'm just not seeing how it can be seen as being too powerful. There were some issues brought up in the beta about PC's trying to create an oasis by means of Create Water, but the final PF version takes care of that--unconsumed created water disappears after 24 hours.
Am I missing something?
I guess I'm just not seeing how it can be seen as being too powerful. There were some issues brought up in the beta about PC's trying to create an oasis by means of Create Water, but the final PF version takes care of that--unconsumed created water disappears after 24 hours.
Am I missing something?
I think they're concerned about the amount of water you can create. I personally don't really like it as a 0-level spell because it means you can create an unlimited supply of water for yourself.
I guess I'm just not seeing how it can be seen as being too powerful. There were some issues brought up in the beta about PC's trying to create an oasis by means of Create Water, but the final PF version takes care of that--unconsumed created water disappears after 24 hours.
Am I missing something?
A level 20 cleric can create 800 gallons of water a minute. That is 6400 pounds of water. Give that cleric 10 hours, and they will create 480,000 gallons or almost 4 million pounds of water. A level 10 cleric can do the same in 20 hours. That is a cube of water about 40 foot on each side. That will fill 240 5 foot squares to a height of 10 feet.
So, build a place to contain the water, create a small lake worth of water, break the dam, and create an instant tsunami. The best part is that the water disappears after 24 hours. Do this inside a dungeon where the water has no place to go due to the confined spaces, and the mini-tsunami will clear out a large section of the dungeon for the players
Another option is use it to flood a section of a dungeon and drown anything in that area.
You can do all of this and still have all of your other spells per day. I don't think a level 0 spell was meant to be that powerful.
Okay, first off: Paizo only decided not to change Create Water. It has been exactly the same since 3.0 Edition.
Second, you can already create water in a waterskin. "Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large".
But, to the point; I agree with your house rule. It is far too powerful an effect to be a 0-level spell. In fact, I think it should be reduced in effect, and increased in spell level. In my house rules, it simply does not exist below 2nd level spells.
Oops! My apologies for thinking that Create Water had been 1st level, or that it couldn't be created inside a waterskin (I don't know why I thought that).
I do still believe that 1 gallon of water per casting should be an official change to the spell (as it is usable at-will).
As for a potential house rule (instead of changing it's spell level), how's this:
In arid or other water-scarce environments, each casting of Create Water reduces the chance that it can be cast successfully within a certain time frame and area (1/hour to 1/day, and perhaps 1 mile). Start at 100% and reduce the chance based on scarcity (say, 5% per casting). The first time is guaranteed, but after that, the caster must roll %d as part of the casting. If the roll indicates a failure, then the spell cannot be used again until the given time frame has elapsed or the character leaves the area. This of course would be per casting of Create Water per group of individuals in that area.
This means no orders of druids (or clerics, or adepts) turning a desert into a garden.
I guess I'm just not seeing how it can be seen as being too powerful. There were some issues brought up in the beta about PC's trying to create an oasis by means of Create Water, but the final PF version takes care of that--unconsumed created water disappears after 24 hours.
Am I missing something?
A level 20 cleric can create 800 gallons of water a minute. That is 6400 pounds of water. Give that cleric 10 hours, and they will create 480,000 gallons or almost 4 million pounds of water. A level 10 cleric can do the same in 20 hours. That is a cube of water about 40 foot on each side. That will fill 240 5 foot squares to a height of 10 feet.
So, build a place to contain the water, create a small lake worth of water, break the dam, and create an instant tsunami. The best part is that the water disappears after 24 hours. Do this inside a dungeon where the water has no place to go due to the confined spaces, and the mini-tsunami will clear out a large section of the dungeon for the players
Another option is use it to flood a section of a dungeon and drown anything in that area.
You can do all of this and still have all of your other spells per day. I don't think a level 0 spell was meant to be that powerful.
I am completely unconcerned with the scenario you have outlined. That's because it is ludicrous, and no one I know or play with would even attempt it. And if they did, I would put a stop to it. That is what the DM is for, to adapt and guide the game so it is fun for everyone (including himself).
Now, before someone gets their knickers in a twist, I am not saying "rule zero means it's not broken". I hate that argument as much as anyone. What I am saying is, if it's flat stupid, don't let it in your game....unless you like it.
Meanwhile, I am concerned about there being no way, short of blocking access to divine magic, to make a cleric (or most parties) thirsty. Not to mention villages of peasants during a drought, etc.
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We discussed this way back in Alpha, but, and they even went and removed the level-dependent duration in prestidigitation, but left a level-dependent variable in create water.
The advantage I could see to keeping a level-dependent amount of water is for the classes who don't get to cast unlimited cantrips, like the Adept. On the other hand, one could just as readily have the 2 gallons / level or whatever version of create water be a 1st level Adept spell, while the fixed 1 gallon of water version would be a 0 level Cleric / Druid spell...
So long as the water, and the acid created by acid splash (which, as an Instantaneous duration Conjuration effect was permanent, in 3.5, although that's been specifically addressed in PF), aren't able to be stored and stacked up in vast world-changing / economy-affecting quantities, I'm not real worried about it.
This kind of stuff has been around forever. Who *didn't* abuse Metamorphose Liquids back when the Tome of Magic came out to make infinite free wine, mead and ale? I don't think any of our parties ever drank water again... :)
A level 20 cleric can create 800 gallons of water a minute. That is 6400 pounds of water. Give that cleric 10 hours, and they will create 480,000 gallons or almost 4 million pounds of water. A level 10 cleric can do the same in 20 hours. That is a cube of water about 40 foot on each side. That will fill 240 5 foot squares to a height of 10 feet.So, build a place to contain the water, create a small lake worth of water, break the dam, and create an instant tsunami. The best part is that the water disappears after 24 hours. Do this inside a dungeon where the water has no place to go due to the confined spaces, and the mini-tsunami will clear out a large section of the dungeon for the players
Another option is use it to flood a section of a dungeon and drown anything in that area.
You can do all of this and still have all of your other spells per day. I don't think a level 0 spell was meant to be that powerful.
Ok, I can see the validity of those arguments, but I'd be more concerned that I was playing with people who thought that using such 'tactics'--I use the term loosely--are not only acceptable, but fun. I doubt I'd stick around long with players who would do this, thus my not seeing a need for a houserule change. Still, if people do find they need a change, by all means find something that works for both players and GM.
I have used create water to try to 'wash' precariously perched foes down to ground level, and scaling it back to 1 gallon per casting would make it little more than a waterskin refill. That being the case, perhaps scaling the 24 hour time frame for the water to evaporate instead--one hour, even half an hour, should be enough time to drink your fill, and water the horses etc.
I think it is a very good house rule, one gallon per 6 seconds of chanting seems to be fine to me. chant for 1 minute and you have 10 gallons, no more ludicrous ideas to drown creatures in pits and such.
Not even when the two clerics and druid band their might together.
It is however plenty to do what the spell is created for in my opinion, if that means you have to spend 5 minutes to create that water so be it.
To address this and a few other small things, I'm planning to make a change in my upcoming Kingmaker game:
All 0th level spells effects are at 1st caster level, unless the slot itself is expended. So create water is 2 gallons, light lasts 10 minutes, etc. If they actually use up the spell slot (no more 'at-will' for that spell), they get full caster level effect (and I'll make reasonably stronger effects for some, like ray of frost 1d3/lvl or 1d3 + 1/lvl).
Caster level for purposes of bypassing SR and other aspects of the spell are unaffected, only duration and effect. So range of acid splash and # of targets for message remain the same.
To address this and a few other small things, I'm planning to make a change in my upcoming Kingmaker game:
All 0th level spells effects are at 1st caster level, unless the slot itself is expended. So create water is 2 gallons, light lasts 10 minutes, etc. If they actually use up the spell slot (no more 'at-will' for that spell), they get full caster level effect (and I'll make reasonably stronger effects for some, like ray of frost 1d3/lvl or 1d3 + 1/lvl).
Caster level for purposes of bypassing SR and other aspects of the spell are unaffected, only duration and effect. So range of acid splash and # of targets for message remain the same.
Seems to be a nice houserule, any chance you will post a summary of your changes at some point ?
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One of my players loved this spell and was trying to get all of his followers as clerics so he could start a cult to 'gardenize' the deserts of the world.Caused me to houserule the unlimited 0 level spells. now they can cast them as many times as they have con points/ day before becoming fatigued. after that its a con check vs dc10 +1 per time cast over con score to not become exhausted and unable to cast anymore that day.
A level 20 cleric can create 800 gallons of water a minute. That is 6400 pounds of water. Give that cleric 10 hours, and they will create 480,000 gallons or almost 4 million pounds of water. A level 10 cleric can do the same in 20 hours. That is a cube of water about 40 foot on each side. That will fill 240 5 foot squares to a height of 10 feet.
And just imagine what all that water could do to a fire elemental.
Based on the comments of everyone in this thread (special thanks to both Set and Majuba) in regards to Create Water, I would suggest the following:
If Create Water is prepared as a 0-level spell, it produces 1 gallon of water per casting.
If Create Water is prepared as a 1st-level spell, it produces 2 gallons/level per casting.
If Create Water is prepared as a 0-level spell, it produces 1 gallon of water per casting.
If Create Water is prepared as a 1st-level spell, it produces 2 gallons/level per casting.
This is reasonable.
Another option is to put a maximum to the amount of water created per day: instead of "conjures 2 gallons per caster level" it becomes "conjures a maximum of water per day equal to 2 gallons per caster level". You spend a level 0 slot, to be able to create in a day that amount of water, and you can split it in multiple castings.
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And just imagine what all that water could do to a fire elemental.
There is some debate about the effects of doing so :-)
Ignoring Create Water for a second.
A fire elemental cannot enter water or any other nonflammable liquid. A body of water is an impassible barrier unless the fire elemental can step or jump over it
What would happen if you forced a fire elemental to be completely submerged in water? IE what if they were trapped in a pit, and you filled the pit with water? Instant death? Drowning rules?
The rules suggest a strong incompatibility with water, but fail to define the exact consequences.