I have two players interested in joining a game of mine. They both have ideas that deviate a bit from the norm and I wanted to get some opinions and advice.
The first on the list is Snowy.
Snowy want's to play a spell singer. As there are no spellsinger classes he had the idea of a sorcerer who's bloodline and the abilities therein were bardic based. The bloodline being descendant of a powerful (no laughing) bard. This is what Snowy sent me:
I used the Celestial Bloodline as a working draft, which seems to draw clerical stuff for the bloodline...As a draft i have...
Class Skill: Perform Skill [Pick One].
Bonus Spells: 1st Level Bard Spell (3rd), 2nd Level Bard Spell (5th), 3rd Level Bard Spell (7th), 3rd Level Bard Spell (9th), 4th Level Bard Spell (11th), 4th Level Bard Spell (13th), 5th Level Bard Spell (15th), 5th Level bard Spell (17th), 6th Level Bard Spell (19th).
Bonus Feats: Arcane Armor Training, Armor Proficiency Light, , Dodge, Mobility, Performance, Skill Focus (Knowledge [Pick One]), Skill Focus (Perform [Pick One]), Weapon Finesse.
Bloodline Artist: Whenever you make a knowledge skill check, add 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained.
Bloodline Powers: Music is in your blood.
Soul of an Artistic: Starting at 1st level, you can use Bardic Performance (per Bard), for 2+Charisma modifier. +1 additional round per level per day (See Bard). You are also considered a 'bard' for the purposes of using magic items.
Versatile Perfomance: Starting at 3rd level, you may use your Perform Skill to substitute for skills, per the Bard.
Lore Master: At 9th level, can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in. You can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, once per day, you can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action. He can use this ability one additional time per day for every five levels he possesses beyond 9th, to a maximum of three times per day at 19th level
Jack of Trades: At 15th level, you can reroll any one ability check, attack roll, skill check, or saving throw you just made. You must decide to use this ability after the die is rolled, but before the results are revealed by the GM. You must take the second result, even if it is worse. You can use this ability once per day.
[Too high to worry about?]: At 20th level, (Drawing a blank)
I left Perform open to be picked, so that the bloodline doesnt HAVE to be a singer, even though that's the perform skill that interst me.
I left bonus spells sorta generic at the moment, jotting down levels and figuring we can sorta work that out later, or you can assign as you think appropiate.
Feats were reflective to make the sorceror feel more bardish.
Bloodline powers are all bardic in nature, but the sorcerer is not as skilled at it (ie 1/2 levels to add to knowledge rolls and 1/2 the rounds to use Bardic Performance) or got them at much later levels.
I dont think this is too over the top or unbalanced. It's only a draft though and open to discussion.
Then there's the other player. His gnome Cavalier is based heavily off of classic gnome D&D archetypes of big noses, mischievous pranks, etc. I'm trying to get him brushed up on Golarion gnomes but I think his concept can work with some tweaking. His Cavalier Order is that of the Forest Moon... unfortunately I don't have a full write up yet. When I get it I'll post it to see what people think.
Thanks
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If you are asking about game balance, I would send the "I want to be a bard for free" bloodline back to its creator for a serious revamping. No way should any bloodline get nearly all of the useful core class abilities as well as their own class powers. The proposed bloodline borrowed all the best bardic abilities plus grants better knowledge abilities than a lore tweaked magic-user. You don't see smite evil from paladins showing up under celestial bloodline do you? Sorry thats unbalanced as a bloodline, especially when combined with getting bard spells as bonus spells. I don't think I would allow a list of spells specialized for a class like ranger, paladin, or bard to be learned as bonus spells for a bloodline class or a cleric domain.
A better fix for a spellsinger would be a prestige class that required bard levels plus arcane levels as prerequisites.
It really sounds like Snowy wants to play a gestalt sorcerer/bard. Unless your campaign is already using the gestalt rules, his current build is probably not going to fly, though...
When building a sorcerer bloodline, keep in mind that each bloodline power is, individually, supposed to be weaker than any single ability of another class. With that in mind, stealing a bard ability is not really an option. Taking inspiration from one, though, is perfectly acceptable, as is stealing another bloodline's ability and giving it a cosmetic makeover. That's the advice I would give Snowy if he wanted to do a re-work.
In other news, you've inspired me to try and create a Spellsinger bloodline of my own. No guarantees that it's what Snowy is looking for, but I'll post it here just in case it helps out at all.
I have to say I think I agree with you. He cut down the benefits compared to what bards get but he's still getting the cream of the crop of their abilities. I pointed him in the direction of Treanmonks Guides and recommended the controller bard rather than trying to tweak with the system. I'll see what he says.
The other character is a different type of difficult. His idea tends to be very... classic D&D, now while I've managed to control my desire to destroy the character prior to his entry into the group (classic gnomes are only slightly less reviled than tolkeinesque elves amongst me and mine) I think his idea for a Cavalier order, though a touch silly, isn't overpowered...
Order of the Forest-moon Gama-order
A cavalier who belongs to this order serves the; gnomes, forest-lands, their friends, and a good joke, through; advice, tricks and or hunts
Edicts:
--Don’t trip over a long nose.
Don’t be prideful you aren’t big-folk let them be all shiny and foolish, don’t show a banner. [Snicker; unless it’ someone else’s {see prankster}], don’t have too many long noses together you might trip and scare folk.
--Don’t miss a good party!!!
Gnomes never get anything done without a good party, you never know what advice, tricks or hunts might be needed.
--A long nose is good for poking!!
Listen to gossip how else, will you be able offer advice and choose who is unlucky.
---Avoid Bad-luck and Bad advice!
Avoid delivering Ill Luck and Advice so that bad luck splashes back unnecessarily on Gnome-folks and friends.
Challenge: “Pie-in-the-face”:
Use missile or splash to enrage, thinking of a +1 morale bonus, to dexterity saves by attacks due to the challenged one’s rage.
[Whenever an order of the Forest-moon cavalier issues a challenge this requires launching a missile or splash attack of something disgusting to the challenged, he receives a +1 morale bonus on all dexterity based saves (it is not restored until the cavalier issues a new challenge). This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses.]
Skills: An order of the forest moon cavalier adds Stealth (Dex*) and Survival (Wis) to his list of class skills. In addition, when an order of the Forest -moon Cavalier uses Survival to provide food and water for his allies or to entertain his allies. He receives a bonus on the check equal to 1/2 his cavalier level (minimum +1), if for food it can't be saved more than 48 hours. [Party!!]
Order Abilities: A cavalier that belongs to the order of the Forest-moon gains the following abilities as he increases in level. Prankster (Ex) 2nd, Ninth life (Ex) 8th, Wild-hunt (Ex) 15th.
Prankster (Ex)
At 2nd level, the cavalier can pull a prank [swipe underwear and use as a “Banner” or wife’s {the Dagger -tooth Baron hated that}, foot caught in loop trap, etc. the victim cannot be harmed or the affect is lost. He can then make a Bluff check to demoralize each enemy within 30 feet. The cavalier receives a +2 morale bonus on melee attack rolls made against targets demoralized in this way. Once a creature has been the target of this ability, it is immune to its effects for 24 hours.
[Gnomes borrowed {stole} the effect from Dragons, but wonder if pulling a prank isn’t harder then bragging {though maybe not for a forest gnome if you caught one bragging you can call them Pinocchio}]
Ninth life (Ex)
At 8th level, an order of the {lion} forest-moon cavalier can call out to his allies, inspiring them to [greatness} the Hunt. As a swift action, the cavalier can grant a competence bonus equal to his Charisma modifier on all attack and damage rolls to all allies within 30 feet.
Wild-hunt (Ex)
At 15th level, the cavalier can take retribution on those who have been found unlucky and foul to the Gnomes by an ‘Ill Luck” [usually him or herself but not necessarily], under his Oath of Vengeance . Whenever an enemy makes a successful melee attack against the cavalier or an adjacent ally devoted to the same hunt as the cavalier, the enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from the cavalier. The cavalier receives a +2 morale bonus on the attack of opportunity. If the attack made by the enemy was a critical hit, the cavalier may treat the enemy as the target of his challenge for the attack of opportunity. The cavalier can use this ability once per round. [I stole part of this from the order of the star but I don’t know if like the effect now that I named it the “wild hunt” And I really like the name]
Maybe; something about causing fear and higher speed?
So aside from educating on Golarions more tolerable and less genocide-worthy gnomes what do people think?
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Couple of quick thoughts on the gnome cavalier:
1. I haven't compared the listed abilities to those already existing to see how they stack up. You should probably do that, since most of the cavalier powers seemed very lame to me the few times I scanned them. The only cavalier I have ever used were monsters, and I went with order of the dragon for them. IIRC, most of their abilities were for a very short duration. If so, you should place a commensurate duration on Ninth Life. Granting +4 to +6 to hit and damage for everyone in the party is not something a bard or spell can do at that level that I can think of, so it really all depends on how you feel about it balancewise, but I would set a specific time limit on it.
2. Stealth seems sort of anti-class for a cavalier, not sure I would put it out there as a class skill.
3. Same with the no banner thing, cavaliers and banners sort of go together. See what he thinks about something like befuddle "big folk" with his banner, so the more confusing or outrageous it is, the more effective. Say something like, every day that someone asks him to explain his banner design, material (underwear was a good one!), shape, location displayed, etc, he gets a bonus. This seems more gnomish to me, with lots of roleplaying and creative opportunity, but YMMV.
Really cavaliers are quite colorful, so you do want to talk it over with him and make sure he and you are both happy with whatever final product you end up with. Just remember that whatever his order is about, you may be called upon to come up with a bunch of NPC gnome cavaliers to flesh out the rest of his order's ranks. :)
Hmmm, I'll make that recommendation for the banner thing. I'm going to keep the stealth skill simply because I think it makes sense for a small sized forest based order, in that alone they aren't your run of the mill cavaliers. I'll run a comparison to other abilities as well.
Spellsinger Bloodline
Class Skill: Perform (any)
Bonus Spells:
3. Ventriloquism
5. Soundburst
7. Heroism
9. Good Hope
11. Modify Memory
13. Greater Heroism
15. Song of Dischord
17. Sympathetic Vibrations
19. Wail of the Banshee
Bonus Feats: Arcane Armor Training, Armor Proficiency (Light), Dodge, Improved Counterspelling, Mobility, Skill Focus: Knowledge, Skill Focus: Perform, Weapon Finesse.
Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that does energy damage (acid, cold, electricity, or fire), you can choose to change its energy type to sonic damage.
Bloodline Powers:
1. Inspiring Song (Su). As a standard action, you can target a single ally within 60 feet that can hear you and grant it a +1 Morale bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1 round). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma bonus.
3. Resist the Music (Ex). You gain Sonic Resistance 5 and a +2 bonus on saving throws against language-dependent effect. At 9th level, this increases to Sonic Resistance 10 and +4 vs. languange-dependent effects.
9. Lore Master (Ex). A number of times per day equal to your sorcerer level, you can choose to take 10 on a Knowledge check you have at least 1 rank in.
15. Silver Tongue (Ex). You increase the save DC of any language-dependent spell by +2.
20. Music of the Spheres (Ex). You gain immunity to sonic effects. If you make a DC 30 Perform skill check as a move action when casting a spell with a language-dependent sub-type, you can ignore the language-dependent requirement of that spell. You can choose to make a Perform skill check in place of a caster level check for any spell that has a Verbal component.
I like the second take on the spellsinger bloodline a lot better than the first. It seems more in line with the balance of the other bloodlines, but still has a similar, bardic flavor while being unique. I might even steal this one for my own game if thats okay SmiloDan :)
Go for it!
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If you are asking about game balance, I would send the "I want to be a bard for free" bloodline back to its creator for a serious revamping. No way should any bloodline get nearly all of the useful core class abilities as well as their own class powers. The proposed bloodline borrowed all the best bardic abilities plus grants better knowledge abilities than a lore tweaked magic-user. You don't see smite evil from paladins showing up under celestial bloodline do you? Sorry thats unbalanced as a bloodline, especially when combined with getting bard spells as bonus spells. I don't think I would allow a list of spells specialized for a class like ranger, paladin, or bard to be learned as bonus spells for a bloodline class or a cleric domain.
A better fix for a spellsinger would be a prestige class that required bard levels plus arcane levels as prerequisites.
theres a prestige class from complete arcane that gives abards up to 9th level spells. let them be a bard and take that class
theres a prestige class from complete arcane that gives abards up to 9th level spells. let them be a bard and take that classIf you are asking about game balance, I would send the "I want to be a bard for free" bloodline back to its creator for a serious revamping. No way should any bloodline get nearly all of the useful core class abilities as well as their own class powers. The proposed bloodline borrowed all the best bardic abilities plus grants better knowledge abilities than a lore tweaked magic-user. You don't see smite evil from paladins showing up under celestial bloodline do you? Sorry thats unbalanced as a bloodline, especially when combined with getting bard spells as bonus spells. I don't think I would allow a list of spells specialized for a class like ranger, paladin, or bard to be learned as bonus spells for a bloodline class or a cleric domain.
A better fix for a spellsinger would be a prestige class that required bard levels plus arcane levels as prerequisites.
Foklukan Lyrist if memory serves. Good prestige class.
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Super Genius Games has a product (Archer Archetypes) that take some class features of each class into archetype packages that you can swap between classes.
For the Spellsinger, I'd suggest following their idea and take the Bloodline completely from the Sorcerer and get the Bardic Performance, Versatile Performer and Well-Versed abilities from the Bard. This should be mostly balanced. Unless you already have a bard whose toes will be very well trod on.
I have to say I'm liking SmiloDan's write-up for the bloodline. I'll run that by the player and see how they like it. Barring that I might run with Paul Watson's suggestion. The players isn't being too picky, she wrote up a sorcerer with the celestial bloodline who wanted to be a bard but discovers her destiny is more arcane.