Spell Prerequisites for Item Creation

[tanonev]

Relevant PRD sections:

Quote:

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).

...
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
...
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.
...
In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

For the following situations (assume the Wizard supplies Scribe Scroll, and nothing else), which of the following are legal?

1) Wizard 3 + Cleric 3 = Divine Scroll of Darkness CL3
2) Wizard 1 + Cleric 3 = Divine Scroll of Darkness CL3
3) Wizard 3 + Tiefling Rogue 3 (SLA Darkness CL3) = Arcane Scroll of Darkness CL3
4) Wizard 1 + Tiefling Rogue 3 (SLA Darkness CL3) = Arcane Scroll of Darkness CL3
5) Wizard 3 + Tiefling Rogue 1 (SLA Darkness CL1) = Arcane Scroll of Darkness CL3
6) Wizard 3 + Tiefling Rogue 1 (SLA Darkness CL1) = Arcane Scroll of Darkness CL1
7) Wizard 1 + Tiefling Rogue 1 (SLA Darkness CL1) = Arcane Scroll of Darkness CL1

8) Wizard 1 + Ranger 4 = Divine Scroll of Resist Energy CL1
9) Wizard 1 + Ranger 4 = Arcane Scroll of Resist Energy CL3
10) Wizard 1 + Ranger 4 = Arcane Scroll of Resist Energy CL1
11) Wizard 3 + Ranger 4 = Arcane Scroll of Resist Energy CL3
12) Wizard 3 + Ranger 4 = Divine Scroll of Resist Energy CL3

[Magicdealer]

Well, lets see if I can get this right :/

Each class has its own caster level. Unless you're in a prestige class, they don't stack. And a spell-like ability isn't a spell. Since scrolls require *any spell that you know*, the spell-like ability doesn't meet the definition.

for the following, I assumed the wizard levels supplied nothing but scribe scroll and so I ignored them.
1) cleric 3 just barely qualifies for darkness, and is legal
2) same thing as above. You could have just taken scribe scroll as a feat
3) if we're ignoring wizard then no
4) no
5) if we're ignoring wizard, then no
6) if we're ignoring wizard, then no
7) not legal

8) if you have the bonus spells, then yes
9) no - rangers cast divine spells, and the divine slot is the one that you have to use for resist energy
10) if we're ignoring wizard, then as 9. If you're not ignoring wizard, still not because wizard isn't high enough.
11) this only works if you use the wizard levels to do it, and ignore ranger completely.
12) this doesn't work, because the ranger caster level is (4-3)=1 not high enough for a divine caster level of 3.

The important things to note are on page 552 creating scrolls:

"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)"

"The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells."

Basically, you can only scribe a scroll of a spell you can currently cast. Spell-like abilities don't fall into this category. For any particular combination, calculate what divine spells and arcane spells you can cast. If you can cast the spell (not sla), then you can scribe the scroll. It'll function as divine if you used a divine slot, or arcane if you used an arcane slot. It will possess either your caster level for that particular spell, or a lower caster level if you opt to use the minimum score required to cast it.

The reason that spell-like abilities don't qualify is that they function differently from actual spells. They ignore material components. They has no verbal or somatic components. They can't be counter-spelled. And finally, they're just not spells, and scribe scrolls requires spells.

[tanonev]

Thanks for the reply. While I agree with most of those answers, I don't follow the reasoning for this one:

Magicdealer wrote:

The reason that spell-like abilities don't qualify is that they function differently from actual spells. They ignore material components. They has no verbal or somatic components. They can't be counter-spelled. And finally, they're just not spells, and scribe scrolls requires spells.

Creating Magic Armor wrote:

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating Magic Weapons wrote:

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the weapon triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the weapon's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating Potions wrote:

Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (A focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

Creating Rings wrote:

Rings that duplicate spells with costly material components add in the value of 50 × the spell's component cost. Having a spell with a costly component as a prerequisite does not automatically incur this cost. The act of working on the ring triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the ring's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating Rods wrote:

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the rod, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the rod triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the rod's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating Scrolls wrote:

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

Creating Staves wrote:

The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.) The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff 's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating Wands wrote:

The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires. Fifty of each needed material component are required (one for each charge). Material components are consumed when work begins, but focuses are not. A focus used in creating a wand can be reused. The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand's creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

Creating Wondrous Items wrote:

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Now, if your reasoning for disallowing SLAs for scrolls is because they "aren't spells", then you have to disallow the use of SLAs for all other magic items, since they use the same language about expending slots. But if that's the case, then the following rule is vacuous:

Magic Item Descriptions wrote:

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

I can see a RAW argument for disallowing SLAs for substituting in spells for item creation where material and focus components would be required, but that wouldn't hold if the spell in question didn't have material and focus components to begin with (Darkness has a cheap material component, but there are other SLAs that don't that could be used in the example).

[Twowlves]

tanonev wrote:

For the following situations (assume the Wizard supplies Scribe Scroll, and nothing else), which of the following are legal?

1) Wizard 3 + Cleric 3 = Divine Scroll of Darkness CL3
2) Wizard 1 + Cleric 3 = Divine Scroll of Darkness CL3
...

I'm assuming you mean these are two separate casters collaborating, not a single multiclassed character making the scrolls. If that is the case, I'd like an "official" answer to this as well.

[Magicdealer]

General to specific.

Also, lots of unnecessary quoting :p

The section you quoted as evidence for your view, on page 460 of the core rule book, is part of the section detailing requirements.

"Certain prerequisites must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind."

So, yup, spell like abilities can fulfill prerequisites. But I think here's where the discrepancy comes in. They can fulfill prerequisites, which are listed immediately following the caster level of an item. This allows you to craft the item with different modifiers on your crafting check. But fulfilling the prerequisite for the check still requires you to be able to cast the spell.

Page 549:

"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites just be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.

So you can avoid the penalty, but you still have to supply the spell in the manner specified in each specific creation section.

[tanonev]

Magicdealer wrote:

So, yup, spell like abilities can fulfill prerequisites. But I think here's where the discrepancy comes in. They can fulfill prerequisites, which are listed immediately following the caster level of an item. This allows you to craft the item with different modifiers on your crafting check. But fulfilling the prerequisite for the check still requires you to be able to cast the spell.

Umm, what? "You don't get a +5 penalty, but you still can't make the check in the first place"? The fact that spell-like abilities are mentioned at all in the block in Magic Item Descriptions imply that there must be at least some situation in which having a spell-like ability affects your ability to craft an item with that prerequisite. With your interpretation, though, there doesn't exist a single core item where that's true.

[Magicdealer]

Ok, examples then :)

We'll see if this tracks or not.

Let's say you're a sorcerer looking to scribe a scroll of darkness. However, you don't have darkness as a spell you know.

Now, the dc for this is 5 + caster level(4). As per page 549, lacking the prerequisite spell increases the dc by 5, so your crafting check becomes 14.

However, the last sentence in the relevant paragraph is "In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

So since here you don't meet the prerequisites, you can't try to craft it at all.

With darkness as a SLA to meet the prerequisite, you're not immediately denied the ability to create the item.

However, at this point, you still have to be able to cast the particular spells in order to create the scroll as per the specific rules.

Now, if you were creating a wondrous item that needed darkness, you could increase the dc to make the item anyways. This is an example of where having the SLA benefits you versus not having it. By having the SLA, you don't have to increase the difficulty to make the item. If you didn't have it, then you'd need to increase the caster check.

So, in your original post, if you had been crafting wondrous items instead of scribing scrolls, you'd be fine for making a crafting check.

Ehh... lets take it step by step, assuming a sorcerer level 4 with a SLA to cast darkness.

First requirements:

Scribe Scroll
Darkness Prerequisite

The sorcerer, assuming he picked up scribe scroll, meets this criteria. So now we go to the specific rules.

"The creator must have prepared the spell or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard."

The character fails to complete this part of the crafting process since he can do neither.

The specific requirements for creating a specific item as a magic item aren't listed as prerequisites. That word does not enter any of the specific paragraphs relating to the specifics of creating scrolls, or really any other magical item.

Thus, two sets of requirements to make an item.

The prerequisites listed under the item and the additional specifics listed under the individual creation rules.
You must be able to fulfill both requirements.

Interesting note about prerequisites according to the section you mentioned last, page 461. Prerequisites are given immediately following the item's caster level.

I'm having trouble finding an item with prerequisites listed immediately following the item's caster level :/

So if we use that as accurate, there doesn't seem to be any items at all with prerequisites, beyond slot, weight, and price :p

That kind of strikes me as... wrong... the requirements are listed not immediately after the caster level, but after both the caster level section, and the description section, falling squarely into the requirements section.

Anyhow, the actual section of magic item creation copies the entry you quoted, with the exception of omitting spell-like abilities.

Rationally, I take this to mean that either the designers were attempting to include or remove spell-like abilities from fulfilling requirements.

Since the discrepancy occurs in the 3.5 dmg as well, it looks like a carry-over error.

At this point, we're out of RAI and into RAW. So I ask myself, what are the potential ramifications of allowing spell-like abilities to qualify for prerequisites. Ability to meet prerequisites without taking spellcasting classes. Easier checks for the master craftsman feat. Earlier *potentially much earlier* access to specific spells including using summoned monsters to cast the spells for various prerequisites.

So, in my opinion, there's too much potential for abuse. As a DM I would rule that SLA's don't qualify. Thus avoiding issues now and with expanded content. Generally, I try to adjudicate based on what is least likely to bite me later with expanded content.

I hope this came out making sense, since I worked on this post in bits and pieces while doing about six other things :/

[tanonev]

OK, let me create a parallel example with Wondrous Items. First, on prerequisites: it's strongly implied that "prerequisite" and "requirement" are used interchangeably, as we can see here:

Magic Item Creation wrote:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.

Looking at a sample Wondrous Item, we see the following:

Wondrous Items wrote:

Elixir of Hiding

Aura faint illusion; CL 5th

Slot —; Price 250 gp; Weight —

Description

A character drinking this liquid gains an intuitive ability to sneak and hide (+10 competence bonus on Stealth checks for 1 hour).

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, invisibility; Cost 125 gp

Craft Wondrous Item is listed as a "requirement," and is almost certainly also the "mandatory prerequisite" referred to in the first block. If we accept this, then we have the following:

Prerequisites:
Craft Wondrous Item
Invisibility

Suppose I have the Craft Wondrous Item feat and Invisibility as (my own) SLA (but not as a prepared or known spell). Now, mirroring what you said about going into the specific rules, let's look at making wondrous items.

Magic Item Creation: Creating Wondrous Items wrote:

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)

This is exactly the same justification you gave for SLA Darkness not working for the Scroll, so then SLA Invisibility should not work for the Elixir of Hiding, either.

I can see a RAI argument for barring SLAs altogether from item creation, but that clearly can't be RAW due to the existence of that line specifically allowing SLAs. (Then again, given that the PRD says that SLAs both can and can't be counterspelled, I wouldn't be surprised if this were something meant to be removed from the rules but accidentally left in.)

EDIT: While we're here, if a Wizard 5 with 2 negative levels scribes a Scroll of Fireball before removing the negative levels, what CL does it end up at?

[Sigurd]

To make a scroll you must cast a spell. My understanding is that for the sake of the magic force needed, magic abilities are not spells. Spells create a magical condition which you effectively automate with a scroll. Abilities are a magical condition which you cannot quantify or typically start and stop. You can't carve off 10 minutes of your darkness power for someone else because is indivisible from you.

You might make a manual of how to use your darkness power effectively but that would not confer the power on others. You have not fulfilled any immediate requirements for the power and you do not understand it as a spell.

Sigurd

[Magicdealer]

Negative levels are on page 562.

For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative -1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, cmbs, cmds, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative levels possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels.

Thus, the wizard would have a caster level of 3, yet not lose any spells. He could only scribe the scroll at a caster level of 3, and everything he casts would be cast at cl 3.

As for your example, if you make the assumption that they are one and the same, then yup. SLA's are useless.

If you make the assumption that they are separate, different sets of requirements, both of which apply to crafting items, then your SLA still has a use in qualifying for the first requirement.

Actually, if you merge the two requirements, your SLA could fulfill the on the list requirement so you can make the actual crafting check with a +5 to the dc to make it without being able to cast the spell.

Considering how many times the particular entry is repeated, minus the SLA entry, as you quoted multiple times earlier, it tempts me to lean against the SLA as well. But obviously I'm already biased there :P

Each of those entries, btw, were edited from the 3.5 dmg to remove all mention of experience costs. Too bad they couldn't have removed that one mention of SLA's, or added it to the other, what, nine or ten places that paragraph is otherwise duplicated. Alas, no one is perfect and mistakes slip through from time to time.

[Khuldar]

You need the spell to make scrolls (and other spell completion items), if not you can do dirty things

i.e.
Wizard sits down and scribes a scroll for a spell he does not know (+5 to the check)
He then turns around and copies the spell from the scroll into his spellbook, so he now knows it.

For non-scrolls, spell-like abilities should work fine to meet the pre-reqs.

As for the caster level, it needs to be high enough to cast the spell and lower then the level of (one of) the crafter(s). Within those bounds you should be able to set it where you like.