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I am planning on playing a paladin, and was wondering something. If you are able to detect the presence of evil, but fail you perception check against it, are you still surprised? I would rule that if you get three rounds worth of detection, you are DEFINITELY not surprised, as you know where the source of evil is hiding.
I know abilities such as scent and blindsense helps you find hidden creatures, and before you spend the time actively sniffing it out, detect evil and scent/blindsense are essentially doing the same.
The spell says that you know the power, and location of the Aura. If its an outsider you don't know the exact location. That means that you are surprised. Because you don't know where its coming from.
But for other situations you are not surprised. However,how often do you ave detect evil ready to 'spot'evil. I won't bother it much.
The paladin's ability to detect evil works at will "as the spell." The spell's description says that it is a standard action to use, and it only works on a 60' cone. As such, you could detect evil constantly throughout the day, but you would be using a standard action every round to do so. And, since a cone only effects 90 degrees of a circle at a time, you would be detecting in the quadrant from north to east in one round, then from east to south the next round, south to west, etc., etc. Effectively, each quadrant would be subject to your detection once every 4 rounds. Or, if you were going down a corridor, you could just keep it aimed forward, or alternate between forward and behind, etc.
The Pathfinder rules describe surprise as follows:
"When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your
opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised."
Note that this description says nothing about knowing the actual location of the opponent, only being aware.
So, my understanding of all this is that so long as your detect evil radar (operating under the restrictions I described above) has picked up the presense of something evil, you are on guard enough to avoid being surprised.
Good point.
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A paladin's detect evil also isn't a cone.
Rules say:
'At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.'
Single target, of your choice. The 'as the spell' part is misleading, since it then outlines how it works and it's quite different: a move, rather than a standard action, and a single target, not a cone. So it's basically a non-issue ; you can't target something you aren't aware of, so you'll never detect an invisible/hidden evil with Pathfinder detect evil. Whether that's a good thing is a whole other discussion..
My understanding of the Paladin's Detect Evil ability is that it still takes a standard action to activate, and otherwise works just like the spell (cone shaped, concentration on subequent rounds to learn more information, etc.). However, the Paladin can, once the ability is activated, spend a move action to concentrate on a single creature or object to learn as much information about that specific creature or object as if he had concentrated for three rounds.
Thus, in one round, the paladin could 1) activate detect evil as a standard action, and 2) concentrate on a single target as a move action. Thus, in a single round he could determine whether a specific target is evil and how powerful its evil aura is. The following round the detect evil ability would still be active, and he could either continue using move actions to focus on single targets one at a time, or could use a standard action to concentrate on the spell as it normally would work.
What he could not do is use the move action to concentrate on a specific aura if he doesn't have line of sight on the target. In other words, if he activates his detect evil ability and picks up the presence of evil, but cannot see the creature or object that is radiating evil, he cannot focus on this invisible creature or object by using a move action. Particularly on the first round, when all he can determine with detect evil is the presence or absence of evil (and sometimes this can result from lingering auras--the actual evil thing may no longer be there anyways).
A paladin's detect evil also isn't a cone.
Rules say:
'At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.'
Single target, of your choice. The 'as the spell' part is misleading, since it then outlines how it works and it's quite different: a move, rather than a standard action, and a single target, not a cone. So it's basically a non-issue ; you can't target something you aren't aware of, so you'll never detect an invisible/hidden evil with Pathfinder detect evil. Whether that's a good thing is a whole other discussion..
Agreed.
The intent of the Paladin's D.Evil I believe is to be able to know if that individual is evil or that alter is evil not as a general blanket radar effect. The upside is that you don't need three rounds to get the answer for a specific "thing" the downside is that is that it works on a single target not a cone.
A paladin's detect evil also isn't a cone.
Agreed.
Incorrect.
It is now a two-fold ability.
One functions just like the spell and is a cone.
The other is a targeted ability.
-James
Sorry but I don't see that from the description of the ability in the section about paladins. It clearly says a paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
The "as a spell" bit is the misleading part.
I don't believe that an always on ability which is better than the spell it is trying to emulate is what the designers had in mind. But "your way, my way" no biggy :)
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I agree with James on this one.
If it worked as you all said, and could only work with one target at a time, then you would think that they would also have the "detect Evil" spell in their spell tree (since it is kind of part of their "thing" ).
Checking the list, they have:
Detect Poison
Detect Undead
this shows to me that they already have that as an ability, just with the add-on of being able to learn more from 1 target faster then (move action instead of 3 rounds).
So I view the Paladin detect evil as "Detect Evil +"
So I view the Paladin detect evil as "Detect Evil +"
Very well put.
Basically the Paladin's detect evil is a spell like ability which duplicates the detect evil spell in its entirety, with the addition ability to spend a move action to focus on a single target.
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So I view the Paladin detect evil as "Detect Evil +"
Very well put.
Basically the Paladin's detect evil is a spell like ability which duplicates the detect evil spell in its entirety, with the addition ability to spend a move action to focus on a single target.
Tonight I played with a player (that is usually pretty rules savvy) stating his paladin could... move equivalent use his class feature Detect Evil (sp) to single target Detect Evil, swift action use his class feature Smite, and standard action to take a swing. He did not have it pre-cast (as players and npcs both detected as evil from Infernal Healing from COT 29: Mother of Flies) and when asked he said he did not walk around with it up.
Yes... the player indicated that he does not need to activate the spell-like ability as a standard, if he INSTEAD used the second sentence of his class feature Detect Evil (sp) as a move equivalent action.
When brought up at the table, it was allowed.
When taken to the coordinator after the module, it was allowed. The coordinator even went so far as to say that he's seen campaign staff do this at Gencon with their Paladins.
I am really reading this ability so incorrectly?
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It definitely lets you detect evil as the spell. That's a standard action. Then, you have this other ability: as a MOVE ACTION you can focus on one specific thing.
So if you don't spend the move action, it's just like the spell. The move action is so you don't have to warm it up to detect evil in a single dude.
If what you are saying is... The Detect Evil (SP) is a standard to activate and then presents two options. Option 1 is per the spell and requires sustained concentration (giving more and more detailed information over time). Option 2 is per the spell-like (and can even be used to interrupt option 1) and requires an addition move equivalent action... Than I agree with you.
I'm not sure how to get this ruling overturned at this point or if it's even worth it at this point. Even if I were to show the coordinator posts from online, is that going to be enough to over-rule his experience of seeing campaign staff do this at Gencon with their Paladins?
If it is ran this way, would the Paladin detecting evil still get the '1st Round: Presence or absence of evil'? Could he effectively get the benefit of both abilities by spending a standard to maintain concentration on the ability (and continue moving option 1) while using his move equivalent to use option 2 every round as well?
i would argue that being aware of the opponent implies knowing where they are. going into an area where you know there are assassins won't stop them from surprising you if you can't see them.
Consider the following:
You walk into a darkened room. Suddenly, a disembodied voice that only you can hear says, "Watch Out! There are assassins!"
Do you then:
A) Immediately roll initiative. You know there are assassins even if you can't see them and can still react accordingly.
or
B) Stand motionlessly, unable to act until the assassin initiates combat by taking his surprise round.
Otherwise, any action you take will effectively be a "combat action" that the assassin, or other characters, may want to react to, but the DM will not have the benefit of initiative to arbitrate turn order.
You could argue
C) Assassin immediately takes his surprise round.
But the assassin would not necessarily know you're aware of him. In fact, you could even argue
D) You get a surprise round because the assassin doesn't know you know.
Really, though, the rules clearly support option A in this situation.
Edit: Airy, my group uses you interpretation of how a Paladin's Detect Evil works. I hadn't even considered Father Dale's interpretation. I don't think we will change, though, barring clarification by the Devs.