**Before reading or posting on this thread please understand that it is NOT a place to complain about the GM killing your favorite character or being unfair in the game.**
Something that has been bothering me for a while now as I have run into it several times is an occational lack of basic courtesy by GMs. Mainly I'm refering to GMs who can't make a session for whatever reason but don't bother to tell the players ahead of time, or explain/appologize for what happened afterwards.
The players are planning their time around the game and all their plans are screwed up when the GM doesn't show. I personally feel I have a commitment to my players to at an absolute minimum let them know as soon as humanly possible when a game has to be canceled. Unless you are in the hospital or prison it's simply a matter of picking up your cell phone and calling someone in the group to say "no game today".
The worst example of GM and frankly player discourtesy I've ever seen involved a fairly large gaming group. A very limited number of the players got togather (including the current GM) to decide on a new game and to only invite their very favorite players. the majority of the group was not invited to this meet, the details of what happened where kept secret so that no one would actually have to tell anyone to thier face that there was a complaint. Further those not invited to the new game were never told when the current game would end, and in fact were were rediculed and insulted when they asked about what was going on.
I myself am not and have not been a perfect player or GM. I will admit that when I was younger I was not as mature or entertaining as a player as I am now. I also understand that thing happen in RL that over rule running a game. Still a simple call saying it is canceled or an appology and brief explanation afterwards doesn't seem to much to ask.
What is the basic level of courtesy you expect from the other people you play with? For the players out there what sort of courtesy to you expect from your GM? For the GM's what sort of courtesy do you feel you owe the players, and for that matter what courtesies do you feel they owe you in return?
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I expect the same level of courtersy that I show to the DM. If i cannot show up to the game I let him know ahead of time if possible. To be respectful and not have a me vs them attitude at the tabel. Another problem I have come across is DMs that think that nothing else is important but the game. Everything including real life must stop because of it. I was kicked out of two games because both DMs felt that I was not showing up enough times. It was like they expected you to show up sick as a dog top the games. Not to mention you had to rework your work schedule around their games. Sorry but no if I have to go work on a game day I go to work. If I have a special event such as a wedding or birthday I am not going to show. If it is a choice between spending time with my girlfreind and the game the girlfriend wins. I know of another gamer who was kicked out of a game because he kept leaving too early froma game, He has rwo young children he has to be availaible for them first. Still kicked out.
Another thing I do want from a DM is a guilt trip pity parade. When you can't show they try to make you feel like crap by telling you how much work they put into the game etc.. I respect the work DMs do because I have been on both sides of the screen. That being said when a player becomes a DM they chose to take on the extra work load and stress of a DM so while I understand you put X amount of hours into preparing the game you took that burden on yourself. So don't throw that into my face.
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We plan our games on availability of the whole group as we all work shifts. Players are expected to show if they have agreed to come but things happen especially in our line of work and we get on with it. I hate it when we plan a game night and it goes wrong but it has only come up maybe twice in four years so good planning goes a long way!
My players and I have some crazy schedules. I let them know whenever I can for when I'm not going to be there, and they do as well.
Sometimes, I don't have more than a few hours; and sometimes neither do they. We are all understanding, and we just move on if we can.
Nobody does it to be mean/evil/whatever...we all understand that life/kids/work get in the way sometimes.
Otyugh and Goblin Snake I wish I was in your gaming group. I can understand being kicked out of a game for being disruptive or rude to players and/or the DM. But because work schedules interfere that just plain sucks imo.
I agree, not something I'd ever do or stand for. Games are nice, but they should never the number 1 priority.
What is the basic level of courtesy you expect from the other people you play with? For the players out there what sort of courtesy to you expect from your GM? For the GM's what sort of courtesy do you feel you owe the players, and for that matter what courtesies do you feel they owe you in return?
For me, the level of courtesy I expect from anyone involved in the game is the same regardless of current role (GM or Player). Partially this stems from the fact that we have decided as a group that we will not be playing that campaign if someone is not there. We have also agreed that we will be making this gaming commitment a priority to attend as we all understand that even missing one or two games each will make a big difference to everyone.
The down side is that asking people to make this commitment has meant that some friends who have expressed interest in playing have been told that while we would love to play with them and they are welcome on days we are not running whatever the current "main" game is (say for strategy games or just hanging out), that they can't be in the game unless they are willing/able to make that commitment.
The only exception to this so far has been me. I have recently gotten a new job as a 911 dispatcher so I am on a shift schedule. It is a union shop and schedules are bid on a priority basis... and I am low man on the totem pole. I have kept the group up-to-date on all developments here and now that I work the early morning after we game and have to leave a little earlier than normal (we used to game from noon-midnight or 0100, but now I need to leave by 10 pm), it does cut a little. I offered to bow out of the group because of our agreement, but they decided they would prefer I stay (I suspect this is because one of them would have to DM if I left, and they would prefer a slightly earlier night). However, as I have little long term control over my shift it may not matter eventually if I end up working a swing shift on saturdays. We'll see.
As a result, if someone is going to miss a session, as much advanced notice as possible needs to be given to the rest of the group. We have, however, agreed to still all meet (the rest of us) and play other games or hang out to keep group cohesion... it seems to help a lot. So even if someone just didn't show it wouldn't be as huge an impact on the others.
It has been working well for us so far, but we are all 30+ in age, so I am wondering how much maturity and mutual respect play in.
Sean Mahoney
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I kicked out a player because everything was more important to the game. I'd do it again. A game is not #1 priority, but at the same time, I expect if you say you are going to do your best to be there, that doesn't mean you will come when you feel like it, and not come when you don't. I have two players who have children. Then miss games all the time, but the difference is that they miss them do to other things coming up. The player I kicked out, decided to go shopping that morning, and then figured he would spend the day with his wife rather than show up.
My game is based around my players. I will put together a whole session based on one character, and then later another, etc to give everyone a chance to shine. When the person who today's game is based around decided he is not showing up, because he and his wife need a day together, I can understand that, to some degree. When this is the third week the something has "come up" in a row, it has much less weight. When that player had all morning to call me, (He has a cell), but calls me an hour before he supposed to be here, that is unacceptable. To me shows that he has no respect for the work that I, as the DM, put into a game for him to enjoy. I told him, that maybe he can come back, when he has more time to devote to the game. He didn't like that.
Now that was all a player, but the reason It is relevant is because this player has also DM'ed games at a local store, and has called an hour before the game (to the store not the players) to say he wasn't making it, and tell the players when they get there.
Whether a player, or a DM, Certain RPG require a commitment. Some don't. The worlds biggest dungeon, I am sure can get by with players dropping in and ou. (I'm am guessing, I haven't played it). With a story based campaign that revolves around character though, you need them there. If you make a commitment to a game like that, then either your girlfriend better understand that you can't just blow it off cause she wants to cuddle, or, you need to not be making that commitment in the first place.
I think if you are a DM it is even more important, because if your players are making that commitment (scheduling things around the game) and if you don't show, it really shows you have no respect for your player's time. That you feel your time is more important than theirs, to just discard their commitment so callously.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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What noretoc said. If I have to choose between a player who is constantly missing the game for real life, work, whatever reason, and another player who I know is going to be reliable, which one do you think I am going to invite to the game? Real life happens, but if you miss more games than you make, you need to cowboy up, take responsibility for yourself, and bow out of the game until you can have the time to show up for it.
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As a GM I always try to have a consistent day that everyone can schedule around. When 6 players and 1 GM have different schedules then it's impossible to make a time when everyone's free without putting gaming a little up the list of priorities.
I agree Real Life comes first, but that being said:
If the game is on at 6 O'Clock Wednesday Night every other week, then you can move most of your real life schedules around it.
If I can't make a game I always give my players as much notice as possible. (24 hours if I can).
My players try to give me the same courtesy too.
I currently act as both DM and host for two game groups. I have in the past acted just as host for one of the game groups (I have the most game materials and the best set up for the game).
Since I am the host (and often the DM), I pretty much decide when we play for my game and who gets to attend (if I don't feel comfortable having someone in my home, they don't get to attend). Of course I try not to abuse these privages. I try to pick times that people can attend and am pretty open to new players joining our groups (I don't think I've ever had to ask someone not to return).
About missing games, well if I feel I need to miss a game, I cancel the game. Usually I will know at least a week in advance if I will not be able to game and will cancel the game for the next week. I don't feel it is necessary to explain why I wasn't able to game, though I usually do. It is just a respect thing that the people I game with trust that I am not canceling because I just want to pick my butt some evening. (on one occassion I had to end a game 1-1/2 hours early, because I had to promptly go upstairs and spew and pass out, and no I hadn't been drinking).
As for players missing, I string them up! No, I'm kidding. I play and run a very relaxed game, the beer-and-pretzler types. If someone can't be there, then their character has to go check something out or gets sick or something. I design the story so that no one character is totally necessary (it makes it easier to kill PCs that way). If we have fewer than half the players present we will usually cancel otherwise we game without them and catch them up when they get back.
In one group I have 5 players and they are all pretty consistent. One player missed something like 3 sessions in a row because he was sick. We just had one miss 2 sessions ago for taking a vacation to Florida. He caught back up just fine.
The other group has "5" players. Two players (one of which is my wife) are very dependable about showing up. Another player is pretty good, maybe misses 1 session out of 5. The other two are very hit or miss. One often gets scheduled to work during our game time (they aren't that great at jobs, so them keeping one is really an accomplishment) and so can't play often, though things are starting to get better with their schedule. The other recently got divorced and are often gone during the weekend (when we game) sowing their wild oats (if by wild oats you mean playing in L5R tournaments all over the place).
So why do I put up with these hit-and-miss'ers? I often see people posting complaining about not being able to find a group to game with, and I think if not for the grace of Dave and Gary, there go I. I have only ever brought in one new player (my then-girfriend/now-wife) to any game group I have been part of. The recent divorcee has helped bring in several people to game with, so I would rather them be a part of the group when they can than to turn my back on them and then find out in a year or two that I have nobody to game with (besides my wife).
So if you can be picky and would rather game with people that view it as a chore or obligation, more power to you. I prefer to game with people who are there because they want to be, not because they feel they have to be. In the long run, if the game is good enough, those that really want to play will find a way to attend, and those that don't will stop on their own. In my experience at least.
I don't feel it is necessary to explain why I wasn't able to game, though I usually do. It is just a respect thing that the people I game with trust that I am not canceling because I just want to pick my butt some evening. (on one occassion I had to end a game 1-1/2 hours early, because I had to promptly go upstairs and spew and pass out, and no I hadn't been drinking).
I personally think an explanation of some sort is at least polite, expecially if it is a case where it was a no show, no call rather than forewarning being given. Now I don't mean that you have to go into details. "I was sick." "Something came up with the family." "Work emergency." These are all short simple explanations with nothing further being required. Just some sort of answer to "What the hell happened?" is polite when people's plans get ruined without warning. Of course you are free to disagree.
I personally think an explanation of some sort is at least polite, expecially if it is a case where it was a no show, no call rather than forewarning being given. Now I don't mean that you have to go into details. "I was sick." "Something came up with the family." "Work emergency." These are all short simple explanations with nothing further being required. Just some sort of answer to "What the hell happened?" is polite when people's plans get ruined without warning. Of course you are free to disagree.I don't feel it is necessary to explain why I wasn't able to game, though I usually do. It is just a respect thing that the people I game with trust that I am not canceling because I just want to pick my butt some evening. (on one occassion I had to end a game 1-1/2 hours early, because I had to promptly go upstairs and spew and pass out, and no I hadn't been drinking).
I agree, as I said, most of the time I do give a reason for having to cancel a game. Therefore if I don't go into details, there is probably a personal reason for not, and I expect the people I game with to understand that and not to push the issue. As a host, the responsibility is much greater for me. I think there has only been 1 time when I got home late and people were waiting outside of the house and I have never just not showed up without any call (though somebody might not have checked their messages until later). But as I said, usually I know a week before hand so can let the players know ahead of time.
As for a player just doing a no-show, yes it would be polite for them to call, but usually if they don't get some kind of message, they will get enough good-natured ribbing at the next game they attend to make them realize they probably should try to give a heads-up next time. But most of the people I work with, still work those crappy jobs where you have to work on the weekends (when we game). This means sometimes they might stay up too late the night before, work all day and then go home before coming to the game. Sometimes they might lay down thinking to get a quick nap and end up over-sleeping and missing the game. I worked those jobs when I was younger and understand it, so I see no reason to get upset when something like that happens.
I think one of the most important skills a DM has to develop is to think quickly on their feet. PCs are going to ruin the best laid plans, it will happen. So if a player doesn't make it, a DM should be able to quickly adapt to the situation and carry on. IMO of course.
In the nine years that I've been in my group, much of it as the main GM, I've only cancelled ONE (1) session, (which incidentally was following the birth of my child). When you function as the GM, you are obligating yourself to run the game, "come hell or high water." There were numerous weeks when I was under the weather, other weeks where my wife yelled at me repeatedly for going to a game, but in all instances, I went anyway, because when you're the GM, the rest of the players depend on you. If one doesn't want to commit to uniformly be present for the duration of the scheduled game sessions, then the appropriate thing to do is to bow out before even starting. While emergencies do happen, I had only 1 in 9 years, and I gave the players 2 months notice. The practice of not informing players, or doing a "last minute cancellation," simply don't cut it, and I wouldn't stay long with a GM who did such.
I run a game on friday nights that gets canceled fairly often, unfortunately. But, I try to always let the other players know as soon as I know that we aren't playing. More often than not, it's just that things come up and we are missing some key players, so rather than push on without them, I want to keep everyone on the same page. Some of my players are very involved in a few social circles, and things just come up. Maybe one of their friends is DJing at a popular bar, or another friend's band is in town. I try to keep the game interesting, but casual enough that we can pick back up after a few missed sessions without out too much back-tracking and ret-cons.
It sucks, but it comes with the territory of a weekend evening games with very socially active players. I can see us in a few years gaming much more often, but for now, we're just happy when we can all come together and play. I have some other side-story campaigns I run when certain players can't make it, so for the most part we still get to do at least some kind of gaming if we have some no-shows.
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The problem is that I see a lot of DMs who when he/she was younger used to game a lot and then for whatever reason had to stop for an extended amount of time expect to want to DM the same amount of time like when they were younger. Good luck with that. Unless your players all live close to you, are single and unmarried do not have kids or girlfriends that is not going to happen. Sure when I was in my early teens I could give a DM 10-12 hours a day for a game day on a consistent basis. Now with having to pay rent and bills, spend time with my girlfriend and family and having to do other stuff like shopping for food I just cannot guarantee a consistent 10-12 hours for a game every week. At most 6-8 hours. I am not the only one. In our current group we game at most twice a month sometimes even once only.
I understand that as a player I have to show as often as I can yet I need to balance that with real life too. Something a lot of DMs are unable and unwilling to accept. All I can recommend to those Dms is to play with a very younger crowd who does not have any responabilites yet. As both a player and a DM I view it as a hobby not an obligation or chore when I run or go to a game. When a hobby starts becoming too much of achore and starts interfering with life outside of the hobby it comes time to drop the hobby. I sure as hell am not going to kick out a player because he wants to do something else with his life beyond D&D. I have a player who has two young childrenn. What kind of person would I be if I kicked him out because he gave his kids more priority than the game. As long as I get told at least 2-3 days ahead of time and not the last minute I am fine with that.
As far as I am concerend running/playing a game is not a right it is a privilage. One not to be taken lightly either or you end up with no players if you cannot work around varied schedules. A DM has all the power in the world until his players leave. Then he is a guy with no game and a bunch of books. Same thing with players if you cannot show up or are unwilling to show up to a game on at least a semi-regular basis time to drop out of it imo.
In my last game I would havehad to leave the game becuase it was a Sunday game and I had to start working on Sundays but before I even knew it was a certainty I go kicked out. While given a guilt trip explanation from the DM and thorough email. Makes me wish I showed up with the gastro and the flu to contimate the rest of the them.
The "real life" stuff that comes up can be a gray area as well.
I gamed with a player that fell behind on his workload and ended up missing games a lot. We played on Sunday nights, so he wouldn't know how behind he was until Sunday afternoon (he was a programmer) and then call at 4 when the game was at 7. It sucked because he had taken on a critical role in the game. The DM had someone else play his character but his notes on his machinations and schemes were never around. He would show up every 4 or 5 games. Sure, he got caught up in his job and he was back a few months later but some of the players would have rather booted him from the group while he got his stuff together.
I can say that it is sometimes easier to bow out as a DM or player and you have to be frank with that discussion. When my wife was diagnosed with cancer and her care was affecting personal relationships, my job and our families then DnD had to go away. I was frank with my group, citing the issues affecting my life.
Ultimately, gaming is a commitment just like any other social arrangement.
If you can't keep that commitment, you let your friends/players know. Period.
Emergencies and other bad events happen sometimes. A family member needs you, you woke up in the morning puking your guts out, you were in a car accident, work called you in unexpectedly. In any of those cases, you get in touch with the people you made the commitment to as soon as you possibly can. Sometimes that's later than someone would like, but if you're late, it better be for a good reason (e.g., the family emergency, car accident, etc.).
I've had some pretty crappy stuff happen to me, but as a GM or player, I've always let other people know as soon as I could.
As a GM, I try to reschedule sessions if possible if someone can't play. If it's a last minute issue--say, we're all at the table and one person can't show, I will run the session without them and catch them up later.
If someone is consistently unreliable or always cancels sessions, I stop gaming with them. (I won't stop being their friend or hanging out with them! But I make it clear that I can't prepare for a game that they then never show up to.)
If you are consistently busy and/or life is just generally being terrible, you do the responsible thing as swank76 said: you bow out, explaining why, and hope you can get another game going when you really can make the commitment.
I understand where Memorax is coming from but at the same time I agree with noretoc.
People tend to have more commitments when the get older. Jobs, families, pets, children, partners, etc.
But I do think canceling (as player or GM) on even a semi regular basis on a group of friends is saying that your time and wants are more important than theirs.
After all its one person interfering with/ disregarding the time and fun of multiple people.
Note: Emergency misses are 100% reasonable.
Ultimately, gaming is a commitment just like any other social arrangement.
If you can't keep that commitment, you let your friends/players know. Period.
Emergencies and other bad events happen sometimes. A family member needs you, you woke up in the morning puking your guts out, you were in a car accident, work called you in unexpectedly. In any of those cases, you get in touch with the people you made the commitment to as soon as you possibly can. Sometimes that's later than someone would like, but if you're late, it better be for a good reason (e.g., the family emergency, car accident, etc.).
I've had some pretty crappy stuff happen to me, but as a GM or player, I've always let other people know as soon as I could.
As a GM, I try to reschedule sessions if possible if someone can't play. If it's a last minute issue--say, we're all at the table and one person can't show, I will run the session without them and catch them up later.
If someone is consistently unreliable or always cancels sessions, I stop gaming with them. (I won't stop being their friend or hanging out with them! But I make it clear that I can't prepare for a game that they then never show up to.)
If you are consistently busy and/or life is just generally being terrible, you do the responsible thing as swank76 said: you bow out, explaining why, and hope you can get another game going when you really can make the commitment.
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great stuff+1
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If a friend who lives out of town and you haven't seen in a while is around for a visit. You have a game that night, would you invite the person to sit in the game and play (assuming the rest of the group was agreeable)? Or would the thought be unconsciousable since they couldn't be a consistent player?
If a friend who lives out of town and you haven't seen in a while is around for a visit. You have a game that night, would you invite the person to sit in the game and play (assuming the rest of the group was agreeable)? Or would the thought be unconsciousable since they couldn't be a consistent player?
Depends on circumstances, I think.
Now, hopefully, you'd know well enough ahead of time from your friend that you'd be able to just reschedule if other arrangements can't be done. But if your friend shows up on your doorstep--
- Is your friend a friend of the other fellow gamers?
- Is your friend a gamer?
- Was your friend a total jerk by popping in unexpected, or was this a joyful surprise to behold?
If I was in this circumstance and my friend both knew at least some of the other players and was a gamer and was interested in playing, then I would check with everyone to see if it was okay if the player popped in temporarily. Usually in circumstances like this, the GM (which is sometimes me) has been able to hand the visitor an NPC or temporarily work in a "hireling" etc. that can be present during the session and easily written out subsequently.
If the friend visiting is just imposing on you and being fairly presumptive of your time, it is actually okay to say, "Look, I had plans tonight, I'm really sorry, but I'll get together with you later."
If the friend visiting is a rare if unexpected and wonderful opportunity (or if your friend shows up because they are in need), even if unfortunately timed, and they don't want to game and/or your group is not okay with it, I would apologize to the GM, explain the circumstances clearly, and ask if it's okay that you miss out this session. If you ARE the GM, then apologize to your players, explain the circumstances clearly, and get the session rescheduled ASAP.
If a friend who lives out of town and you haven't seen in a while is around for a visit. You have a game that night, would you invite the person to sit in the game and play (assuming the rest of the group was agreeable)? Or would the thought be unconsciousable since they couldn't be a consistent player?
It wouldn't matter about repeat playing (as it wouldn't be expected) but it would matter how much training the player would need for the rpg system and rpgs in general.
If a friend who lives out of town and you haven't seen in a while is around for a visit. You have a game that night, would you invite the person to sit in the game and play (assuming the rest of the group was agreeable)?
Would, and have. Most of the group knew him already, and had gamed with him before, and I had an NPC that was going to tag along with the party that session anyway, so I just gave it to him.
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If you are consistently busy and/or life is just generally being terrible, you do the responsible thing as swank76 said: you bow out, explaining why, and hope you can get another game going when you really can make the commitment.
I do agree to a certain extent. Yet it is really hard as one gets older to plan a constant game session on a regular basis. One player gets sick, another has to take care of his kid. Another has to work. It is real easy to say "if you cannot make the time you should drop out". When unfortunately we cannot tell what events will happen ahead of time. At the same time her group has to also except that life does not always do what you demand of it. One of my players as I said has kids I just cannot say "you better show up more often or you are out". It is all about priorites and quite frankly a hobby is not a priority and imo never will be. If a gamer goes out of his way to miss sessions on purpose than yes I would ask him not to come to the game. If events and cirucumstance cause him to miss a session than we just play less. Gaming is a great pastime but that is all that it is. UIt does not pay the bills, nor take of the kids or spernd time with a loved one.
I do agree to a certain extent. Yet it is really hard as one gets older to plan a constant game session on a regular basis. One player gets sick, another has to take care of his kid. Another has to work. It is real easy to say "if you cannot make the time you should drop out". When unfortunately we cannot tell what events will happen ahead of time. At the same time her group has to also except that life does not always do what you demand of it. One of my players as I said has kids I just cannot say "you better show up more often or you are out". It is all about priorites and quite frankly a hobby is not a priority and imo never will be. If a gamer goes out of his way to miss sessions on purpose than yes I would ask him not to come to the game. If events and cirucumstance cause him to miss a session than we just play less. Gaming is a great pastime but that is all that it is. UIt does not pay the bills, nor take of the kids or spernd time with a loved one.
If you are consistently busy and/or life is just generally being terrible, you do the responsible thing as swank76 said: you bow out, explaining why, and hope you can get another game going when you really can make the commitment.
It's a matter of planning realistically.
I am a busy adult and I run a game with four adults who are even busier than I am. I'm not going to go into their personal lives, but suffice to say all of us have plenty of very important commitments to work, family, and so on. We play roughly, once a month. Sometimes the gap is longer, but we always plan the session well ahead of time and know when it will be. I know that to some once a month to once every six weeks is not often enough to play, but that is the rate we can reasonably manage. We look at our lives and determined how often we could play in a manner that would not distract from the rest of our lives, and we stuck to it.
In the two years the game has gone on, we have always been able to schedule a session fairly regularly, with everyone showing up. When a session has needed to be rescheduled, we've been able to identify the conflict early on and find another time to play soon after. The one session that was entirely canceled was last year, as my grandmother passed away. Which is an event everyone was more than understanding about, of course. And even then, after the family time had been spent and the funeral was over and my head was sorted enough to be coherent, I still contacted the group ahead of time and asked to cancel. I didn't just disappear. (Actually, I asked the group to excuse me from running, but I asked them to come by and be with me as I desperately needed the friendly company, and lovely souls that they are, they did.)
And I know if my life went consistently crazy, I would stop running and cancel the game, or ask someone to take over. I owe it to my friends not to just try to schedule something I know I can't do, and then disappoint them when it doesn't happen. My friends have the wisdom to do the same.
People who want to play but have busy lives should have the ability to look at their lives and decide how often they can play, if at all.
If a friend who lives out of town and you haven't seen in a while is around for a visit. You have a game that night, would you invite the person to sit in the game and play (assuming the rest of the group was agreeable)? Or would the thought be unconsciousable since they couldn't be a consistent player?Depends on circumstances, I think.
Now, hopefully, you'd know well enough ahead of time from your friend that you'd be able to just reschedule if other arrangements can't be done.
Reschedule a game around real life stuff, no way! Blasphemy!
But if your friend shows up on your doorstep--
I guess, I was more imagining it with a phone call, "Hey I'm back in town for today, thought we could hang out."
- Is your friend a friend of the other fellow gamers?
- Is your friend a gamer?
- Was your friend a total jerk by popping in unexpected, or was this a joyful surprise to behold?
I guess I didn't state that assumption, I thought it would go without saying that you probably wouldn't consider inviting someone to game if they didn't enjoy gaming. Also you'll notice in my original premise I suggested that the other players would be agreeable to it. As for if they are a jerk for not making arrangements with you before hand, well I guess that depends on how you value your friends. "Yeah, I know its been a year since you've been gone, but you didn't contact my secretary and make an appointment at least 5 working days ahead of time, so I can't fit you in my schedule at the moment."
If I was in this circumstance and my friend both knew at least some of the other players and was a gamer and was interested in playing,
all either stated or assumed to be true.
then I would check with everyone to see if it was okay if the player popped in temporarily. Usually in circumstances like this, the GM (which is sometimes me) has been able to hand the visitor an NPC or temporarily work in a "hireling" etc. that can be present during the session and easily written out subsequently.
Interesting, I'll come back to this in a second.
If the friend visiting is just imposing on you and being fairly presumptive of your time, it is actually okay to say, "Look, I had plans tonight, I'm really sorry, but I'll get together with you later."
Of course, I was assuming (unstated unfortunately) that the friend wasn't a douche-bag (part of my own definition of "friend").
If the friend visiting is a rare if unexpected and wonderful opportunity (or if your friend shows up because they are in need), even if unfortunately timed, and they don't want to game and/or your group is not okay with it, I would apologize to the GM, explain the circumstances clearly, and ask if it's okay that you miss out this session. If you ARE the GM, then apologize to your players, explain the circumstances clearly, and get the session rescheduled ASAP.
Wrong! You must tell your friend to hit the curb! Gaming is the highest priority! Ok, just kidding, but seriously that the impression many people are giving here.
Now back to your comment about how you'd try to have the character worked in, assuming your group was fine with the visiting friend playing (and the friend wanted to play of course). You stated earlier that if you weren't committed to gaming then you shouldn't get involved with it. Why do you hold someone that can make a game every 3rd or 4th session to a higher standard than someone that can only make a sessions once a year? If a character could be brought in and out so easily, why not treat the "fair-weather" players as visiting players? When they can make it, great happy day, when they can't hey no big loss they weren't really expected anyway.
Reschedule a game around real life stuff, no way! Blasphemy!
I KNOW. Crazy, right? :)
Wrong! You must tell your friend to hit the curb! Gaming is the highest priority! Ok, just kidding, but seriously that the impression many people are giving here.
I didn't *quite* get that impression, but I hope I didn't give it. I re-read what I write sometimes and find I often sound far more "srs bsns" than I mean to.
Here's the thing: gaming shouldn't be the "highest priority." BUT (not that I really think I have to spell this out to you): RPGs ARE a major time commitment. They're not like a game of Crazy 8s or Candyland (not that there is anything bad about Crazy 8s or Candyland, as I love both :) ). RPGs take preparation, and usually several hours to play. If a GM has spent several hours out of HIS busy life to prepare a game that nobody shows up to WITHOUT notice or good reason, that's not cool. Likewise if a GM promises to run and doesn't have the goods together, he's let his friends down (and they've wasted their time creating characters, learning rules, etc.)
When time IS precious to the players/GM because they do have a lot of commitments, it's all the more important to be respectful of how much time they take out to play. Now, the players get together for dinner or watching a movie and I'd say the commitment is as important (though requires far less prep usually, unless one of the friends is cooking the dinner)--it's basically about being willing to put time into your friendships, whether you're playing games with them or helping them move or whatever.
Now back to your comment about how you'd try to have the character worked in, assuming your group was fine with the visiting friend playing (and the friend wanted to play of course). You stated earlier that if you weren't committed to gaming then you shouldn't get involved with it. Why do you hold someone that can make a game every 3rd or 4th session to a higher standard than someone that can only make a sessions once a year? If a character could be brought in and out so easily, why not treat the "fair-weather" players as visiting players? When they can make it, great happy day, when they can't hey no big loss they weren't really expected anyway.
Making a compromise ONCE during an unusual circumstance is different from not ever being sure you can count on someone. Which really... goes for just about everything, not just gaming.
Now, if the "occasional gamer" actually SAYS, "I can only make every fourth session, can you let me play an NPC?" then maybe a GM can work with that. But it's not fair to expect on a routine basis that someone should be able to drop everything and include someone when they can't even do you the very simple courtesy of picking up the phone or dropping an email to let you know ahead of time what their plans are. This is a simple issue of communication and planning here; it's not rocket science (And again this really goes for any kind of plans you make with your friends; it's just again, RPGs are one of the social activities one might engage in that require a greater commitment of time and mental energy than others).
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One thing I see a few posters missing here is that you cannot plan for every eventuality or control how things may end up. I am supposed to host a game on Saturday and seem to be coming down with something. So far not so bad yet if I get really sick I have to decide do I let the DM use my place or not. I really want to game yet if I am really sick very well let them use my place in case it is contagious nor would the DM still come over while I am sick in bed. Plam all you want and reschedule all you want except you cannot plan for every thing that happens. I am a good example.
As for rpgs being a major time commitment. They are that yet imo within reason. A DM who runs a game as I have said choes to take the burden of doing all the work for a game. Sometimes it may take a few weeks for it to pay off. Same thing with players if they cannot or are unwilling to commit a certain amount of time than they should not game. It should be a mix of both and a give or take on the part of DM and players. A compromise if you will. So far in my experiecne as of late too many DMs seem to be "It's about the game and only about the game" while making you feel guilty if you cannot show. I wish I could Dm/and play in rpgs all the time. That works in a perfect world. Ours is not perfect.
Were I in your position, memorax, I'd be emailing my GM right now saying, "Hey GM, I'm not feeling too good. Hopefully I'll be fine by the time we have to play, but I just wanted to give you a heads up, so you can write me out of the session if you need to." One email: all possibilities are accounted for, and everything's fixed.
You absolutely cannot anticipate everything. But barring emergencies and other sudden events, which everyone should be completely forgiving about, there should be nothing difficult about dropping an email or calling someone (as soon as you are reasonably able to) if you perceive plans are about to go awry.
No, a DM should not give you a hard time if you something completely out of your control has happened (nor should players give the GM a hard time). But everything else: be respectful of others' time and communicate. It's not hard.
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It all depends by tonight and how I feel. I rather not have them move the game elsewhere for nothing. If it does get worse than of course it goes without saying that I will let him know as soon as possibler. That is the bane of working with the public. Who sometimes are walking living weapons of bio-terroism.
Death Quaker: I'm sending you a big box of chocolate internet hugs. I wish all players and GMs were as considerate as you.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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It's all about common courtesy. Whether at a game table, meeting friends for dinner, getting together for a party - whatever. If you can't make it, give as much notice as possible. Also, be honest with the reason you can't make it.
Our games have gone down to once a month recently, due to all of us getting older and having more commitments (i.e., children, National Guard duty, family commitments, etc.). However, we do our best to come to each session, and if someone can't make it, they make sure everyone knows it as far in advance as possible.
We've also got a player who plays irregularly, but still wants to be part of the campaign. We work with him so we know in advance what sessions he will attend, and work his (slightly lower level than party average) character into each session he comes to. The GM comes up with a reason his PC is not taking part in the evening's session for those sessions he cannot make, and if it is necessary for his PC to be there, the GM plays him as an NPC until we get to a believeable spot when the PC would be able to leave the party (we give his PC XP as if he was there).
Every player in our group has missed at least one session in the past year for one reason or another, leading to a current PC level range of 3rd to 7th in our party makeup. This definitely makes for some interesting combat strategies in each session, but has worked out well for us overall.
As an aside, I'm not a big fan of kicking anyone out of a game (except for disruptive/abusive behavior either in game or out of game), so I tend to be very accommodating to those who may not be able to attend every session.
YMMV.
I notice some differences in how often and how long people game. For example, I game with two groups, each meeting once a week for roughly 3-4 hours. Other posters have mentioned gaming once every 4-6 weeks and/or gaming for 8 hours at a time.
Do you think this effects how you look at people canceling or not?
For example, since the groups I game with meet every week just about and only for 3-4 hours at a time, I have no problem with someone missing a game here and there. We don't game so much at a single sitting that if they are gone they are going to be totally lost when they get back. And we game often enough that people are going to have things come up from time to time (one group meets Saturday night and the other Sunday night).
Do you think the frequency and duration of your gaming effects your outlook on the dedication needed to make gaming sessions?
We're fortunate in our gaming group that we have two gm's who are 100% committed. If one of us couldn't make it for some reason, the other could probably run their campaign on the fly.
As it is, we do three weeks on, three weeks off. Two weeks was too short to establish campaign continuity and four too long to break from either campaign and preserve continuity.
My players are by and large fairly considerate and on the ball. We meet once a week (usually on Mondays) and play for between 4-8 hours. On the rare occasions when there are conflicts we try to work together to make up a date everyone can attend. I view players as a precious commodity.
We just had someone quit the group for personal reasons, but it worked out okay because he was the one player with an inconsistent schedule and ongoing familial commitments.
On several occasions, friends from my days on the road (Ren Faires) swing through the state, or old friends will pop in and grab a character to sit in on a session. We generally look forward to these guest players but we recognize that with a guest player it is more likely than not that the evening will have a more social component to it than usual, so we don't get too stressed if it is not as cohesive as it would normally be.
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Playing Pathfinder or any RPG campaign is a lot like joining a sports team. If you couldn't make the commitment to show up to training and the games, then you weren't really part of the team. So it is with Pathfinder.
Your fellow players are relying on you to show up and pull your weight. Your GM is relying on you to show up and interact with the world they spend time crafting.
If you can't commit the time then you need to work out a different plan. (Perhaps allow sporadic players to play pregen chars, easily written in and out like a local sheriff or whatevs).
Memorax: I hear ya on the "bio-terrorism." I ride a bus filled to the brim with hospital workers and medical students twice a day every day--all I can say is my immune system is tougher than it used to be, but it wasn't fun getting there.
Krisam: Chocolate Internet Hugs! My favorite! :) But thanks. :)
Pres_Man: I think playing less frequently makes it easier to plan and stick to a schedule. You can nail a date down on a calendar and stick to it, because there's enough time gap between them to make sure you schedule other commitments at other times. If you're playing more often with shorter sessions it is also sometimes easier to plan for a quick cancellation or no-show. But that depends on the GM and other players too, and presumably someone who has to cancel is still calling their pals to let them know, not just never showing up (excepting times when something's happened that they are physically/situationally unable to make that call).
Is the fact that a board topic even has to be made a sign that basic social skills, like basic literary comprehension is on the major decline in this country?
Yes. I find that basic social skills are in short supply, even among people that should have them.
My point and personal belief is that as an intelligent adult, you are more aware of your life circumstances than not. Yes, random things come up from time to time that prevent you from gaming. Certain things, like kids or certain professions, can make those things happen more than others. But you KNOW that your life is getting crazy, your kids have soccer camp or cheerleading camp, your job is chaos because a co-worker went on maternity leave or your boss had to have neck surgery during your busiest time (yes all of these have happened to me). You know. So it's respectful to have that conversation and make sure everyone is on the same page.
You know what can be a god-send for long running groups? Google Calendar. I game with people I have gamed with for 7 years so they know my personal stuff anyway. So they can look at my schedule and tell me if I am being overly optimistic. "You really think your kid's baseball game WON'T run over because it has for the past two weeks AND your going to get roped into driving 3 kids back."
Playing for a while, I am on board with the courtesy bit, and sometimes if I know as a player that I do not mesh well with the DM or other players, I just bite the bullet and move on.
In addition, since my group of players break down into die hard, casual, and once in a blue moon type players, we actually run a couple different campaigns. Of course the longest ongoing campaign is played by three of us (shared DM duties), and we have another with 4 players, and the one that is played the least involves 6.
If you break it up into a few different story lines, you should be able to predict who will show up for each session. In addition, you can add cameo appearances with certain players, if they prefer, in some of the longer ongoing ones.
I had that issue once, but in our group everyone could DM so he did not have the "I am the DM" power over the group. We decided to just not game with him anymore. That is the good thing about multiple DM's. It helps to keep people in check and if they don't stay in check nobody really cares since they can be replaced.
I can happily admit the majority of the players I've had in my decade of GMing have been good about communicating, or just disappeared if they weren't good about it. However...
I've only had to ask players not to return for one important reason: lack of attention-span. Seriously, if a player can't pay attention to anything except what they're doing or what happens on their turn, perhaps a group based game isn't for them. I can understand if you're bored or the story is going slow, but bring it up with the GM afterward.
Attention spans seem to be in an unfortunate decline, and this really bugs me. During combat everyone else is focused and invested, and the one player that's not who is daydreaming the whole time is like a massive speed bump for everyone else.
Has anyone else really had this problem or does anyone have any solutions beyond putting a burger-king crown on the player and declaring them god-emperor of the d20? Anyone else have attention hog issues?
I've only had to ask players not to return for one important reason: lack of attention-span. Seriously, if a player can't pay attention to anything except what they're doing or what happens on their turn, perhaps a group based game isn't for them. I can understand if you're bored or the story is going slow, but bring it up with the GM afterward.Attention spans seem to be in an unfortunate decline, and this really bugs me. During combat everyone else is focused and invested, and the one player that's not who is daydreaming the whole time is like a massive speed bump for everyone else.
At bad times, I can be that player. I do actually have ADD (I am not using this as an excuse; this is just a condition I have that I work constantly to overcome) and if there are a LOT of distractions or if I'm just having a flaky day, I can be really fascinated by filling in all the o's on my character sheet and not realize the GM is talking.
I can tell you as a player how I compensate:
- show up to the game well-rested and having eaten a nutritious meal (not just a ton of sugar and caffeine)
- Watch the sugar/caffeine intake during game. Mountain Dew may be the gamer's friend in general, but it is not mine.
- If it's not my turn/the party has split (something I personally try to avoid but it happens), I will do my best to listen and otherwise do stuff like review the spells I have prepared that day. I might still miss something, but if I keep myself occupied BY the work I am supposed to be doing, it helps me stay in character and stay in the game
- If it's not distracting to others, do quiet roleplay with others not involved in the scene/turn at hand or talk tactics ooc with players.
- Ask a fellow player to help me out by checking on me and making sure I'm not looking out the window counting butterflies.
If you have a player who seems to be chronically dazing but insists he wants to play/isn't bored, you might find a way to suggest some of these compensation techniques to him.
As a GM I haven't had to deal with it a lot, but here's a few things I've done/had to do:
- Review who I want in the player group. Some players are better than others at distracting each other. Other players are in fact really good at reining other people in. If I know there will be a personality conflict (and thankfully, most players I know are friends with each other and willing to admit when they know they don't match well in a player group), I will ask one of them to sit out and tell them they'll be invited to the next game. (Edit: Additionally: invite people I know who are interested in the system. One of my "problem players" was a fantastic player in many games--she just didn't get along with d20 and struggled with the magic system, and her response was to just give up and not learn it, and was very distracted the whole time because she wasn't interested. So I invite her to non-d20 games but not to d20 games, and it all works out fine.)
- Run a smaller group. Most of the distraction issues I had resolved when the group cut from 6+ people to 4.
- As you already know, don't be afraid to say in-session, and especially not out of session, "Bob, are you bored? Is there something I can do to help?"
- Someone once did have the audacity to start listening to his iPod in the middle of sessions. I asked him to stop and sadly, had to explain to him why that was so very rude. Fortunately, he understood and stopped.
- Avoid party splits and when it does split, ask EVERYONE what they're up to while so-and-so is doing their thing. Keep an eye on the clock and after resolving one issue with one part of the party, switch to the next part of the party to keep things moving. If someone is left out of the action, I make sure that they're okay with that. This is harder than it sounds and I've had to work to learn how to do this as I've GMed, but it have gotten a bit better as time goes on.
if there are a LOT of distractions or if I'm just having a flaky day, I can be really fascinated by filling in all the o's on my character sheet and not realize the GM is talking.
*SNEEEEEEEERK!!*
Sorry, but that line had me laughing my head off. I probably woke a neighbor or two. :D
DeathQuaker - I appreciate your response. I too have ADD, actually severe ADHD, but I've gotten more control with age. In this players case they just couldn't care what was going on with anyone else. I will try switching the snacks and playing a little earlier. The guy in question is a great Settlers of Catan opponent however...
Is the fact that a board topic even has to be made a sign that basic social skills, like basic literary comprehension is on the major decline in this country?
Part of the problem is different people have different expectations and thus consider different things polite.
For example, some people have suggested that if you can't dedicate the time to game like that of a playing on a sports team, then you are rude for playing even if you make the effort to let people know when you are going to be gone.
While others see it is as more of equivalent to playing a (semi-)regular pick up game. Where you might play 2-on-2 or 3-on-3 or whatever based on how many people can make it that day. And people don't get too upset if someone misses a game here or there.
I agree that it is rude for someone to not give you a heads up as soon as they can (which may be after the event if they overslept or lost track of time). I don't necessarily think that basic social skills are in decline, just that we often remember rude behavior more than we remember polite (expected) behavior, so over time it seems as if the rudeness is increasing because we remember more rudeness.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I have a couple simple table rules to help make sure folks are paying attention.
1. Know what's going on and be prepared to declare your action at the beginning of your turn. That means if you're casting a spell, or doing a wacky combat maneuver, or using a special ability, etc., you have the book turned to that page before your turn comes up.
2. If I think you're taking too long to declare an action, I count down from 5 on my hand. When all the fingers are gone, you lose your turn to the fog of war.
I'm much more lenient if you're the first one to go in a fight, since you haven't really had time to look at the board or look up a rule. I find these two rules help tremendously, even if I'm not particularly strict about enforcement. They speed up combat, too.
Orthos: I wish I were exaggerating, but sometimes.... :)
Kakarasa: Sounds like a plan. If they're not interacting with each other, maybe something that encourages group tactics, and/or offer RP rewards when they interact with each other? Worse comes to worst, Settlers is a fun game, you can always break that out instead. ;)
Pres_Man: Everyone still needs to be on the same page as to whether it's a serious commitment or a pick up and play informal game. If everyone's agreed on one or the other, great. However, if 5 out of 6 players consider the game a commitment, and the 6th player is treating the game very informally and blowing the players off, that's not about "people differing." That's about guy number 6 being a disrespectful asshat.
I don't know if as a culture we are any ruder than our forebears, but I do think this culture could prize good communication skills and courtesy a lot more.
Charlie Bell: These are good ideas. Sometimes the countdown works well, though I've had some players react very negatively to it, and then just slow down the game more with bickering (though at that point, I figure the person's having other issues and talk to them privately outside the session).
Pres_Man: Everyone still needs to be on the same page as to whether it's a serious commitment or a pick up and play informal game. If everyone's agreed on one or the other, great. However, if 5 out of 6 players consider the game a commitment, and the 6th player is treating the game very informally and blowing the players off, that's not about "people differing." That's about guy number 6 being a disrespectful asshat.
I don't know if as a culture we are any ruder than our forebears, but I do think this culture could prize good communication skills and courtesy a lot more.
I don't necessarily disagree, and the big thing is communication. The fact is though, sometimes we as humans tend to assume that others view things in the same way we do. So we don't always make these issues clear initially. We then get upset and feel the other people are being deliberately rude, when it is just different expectations. So again it really comes back to communication. Instead of assuming that this person just doesn't give a crap about you or others, instead try to determine what they do care about and is it the same things you care about. Maybe you shouldn't be gaming together. Maybe, for example, they expect everyone to speak in character 100% of the time (when not declaring their action), there is no table talk allowed, there are no leaving the table for any reason, etc. And maybe you think it is fine to get up and get a beer and make Monty Python jokes and talk about the most recent movie, etc. Both would seem rude to the other, when in fact they just have different expectations.