I have a couple question about the new monster advancement from the Bestiary.
Background: Under 3.5e, there was a table cross-referencing monster type with advancement - for example, elementals were CR +1 per 4HD, while outsiders were CR +1 per 2 HD, and it didn't try to address AC, BAB, etc.
First:
Under Pathfinder, now all monsters are 'created equal'. Regardless of type, with a +1 CR increase, they all expect an equivalent increase in hit points. This does not, of course, mean equal HD, since some are d8 while others are d12.
Was this intentional? It seems like it matches power soley to the amount of HP a creature has, while in reality it's more closely tied to HD due to the typical DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability calculation used for saves. I do notice that the HD type for many creatures was changed between 3.5 and PF - was the HD type change to counteract the issues with advancement based on HP rather than HD?
Second:
The description for the column with the attack bonuses seems to imply that the creature's ability scores should be adjusted to meet the expected average - does this include down? This seems like it would cause abysmal Str scores (and super-high Dex scores) for creatures with low HD such as d8, as they'd rack up the HD trying to meet the HP target and then would have to nerf their Str to meet the attack bonus target yet uber-buf their Dex trying to meet the AC target.
Am I missing something?
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Note that monster types (and hence, their HD) are not equal. Dragons, Undead, Outsiders and Constructs tend to be more of a pain due to flight, immunities, resistances and so on. OTOH, a Fey type is pretty much screwed due to having no shiny stuff other types get for granted.
In other words, if you want a CR 10 monster with Dragon type you need fewer HD to be a challenge as opposed to Fey type. Actually, there's a Monster CR vs HD table that shows just that.
Also, CR guidelines should never be taken as hard rules. There are several monsters that pretty much don't mesh well with any tables (incorporeal undead are a great example). One must also mind the metagame (usually no magic weapons before level 3 or flight before level 5) - throwing a CR 3 monster with DR 10/magic at a levl 1 party is a TPK regardless of what monster creation table would say.
Was this intentional? It seems like it matches power soley to the amount of HP a creature has, while in reality it's more closely tied to HD
Actually, HP is only one of the statistics that are more or less tied to CR now. There's also AC, attack bonuses, average damage, ability DC and saves. There is a whole table with statistics per CR, but the rules explicitly state that these values are a rough guideline only, that many existing monsters don't cleave too closely to those values - though they usually don't wander off too far, and it's usually a balanced scale deal where an uncharacteristically high value in one trait is balanced by a low value somewhere else.
I think that was made so the CRs were more consistent. Before these guidelines, there were monsters that were "glass cannons" (critters with a strong offence but bad staying power - 3e rakshasa and ogre mages were prime examples) or "resource sinks" (critters that won't kill you with one blow that much but will eat a lot of punishment before dying).
It's always hard to have a "fair" CR for such "unbalanced" critters. A glass cannon might wipe the floor with you if it can surprise you, but if you are prepared, you'll wipe the floor with it without as much as a bloody nose. And a resource sink might not be more threatening as any other creature with its attack capabilities, but you do need to use more of your resources to defeat it.
The description for the column with the attack bonuses seems to imply that the creature's ability scores should be adjusted to meet the expected average - does this include down? This seems like it would cause abysmal Str scores (and super-high Dex scores) for creatures with low HD such as d8, as they'd rack up the HD trying to meet the HP target and then would have to nerf their Str to meet the attack bonus target yet uber-buf their Dex trying to meet the AC target.Am I missing something?
Remember that you can just as well increase CON, or give the critter the toughness feat, or do a combination of the above.
There is also a table that shows suggested number of HD per CR (example, CR fey should have something like 17 HD, but a dragon would get as little as 9)
Pathfinder also ties BAB to HD. The higher the HD, the better the BAB!
All in all, I think it should work out pretty well.
Example: Let's advance a dire bear!
Dire bears start out as CR 7. their CR are a bit high, but hteir AC is low. Attacks and Damage are about right, and saves could be said to okay on average. It has 10 HD, just like the table said fits for CR 7 animals.
Now, we want to increase its CR to 8. The table says CR 8 animals should have 12 HD - 2 extra HD. That means we add 2d8+10, for 19 extra HP. The table says the increase should only add 19, but it was a bit high to begin with, so we're within parameters.
AC should increase by 1. Let's say we accomplish that by increasing its Dex to 14 (12HD critters get a bonus). AC is still behind, but no more than before
Attacks will increase by 2 thanks to its HD change, and the increase was supposed to increase this by 1 or 2, so we're on track here, too
Damage is supposed to change as well, but our changes won't do that. On the other hand, average damage was 32.5, which is halfway between 7 and 8, so it's he goes from overperforming slightly to underperforming slightly (in that regard, and anyway, it's not that terrible). If we want, we can give it power attack from the feat it gets, meaning it can get +6 damage for -3 to attack.
Saves will go up by 1 (except for dex, which will go up by 2) to Fort +13 Ref +10 Will +5. Still about right.
An alternative to adding dex and granting power attack would be to add to strength - that way, AC would fall more behind, but damage would stay ahead, and attacks would go slightly above the norm. AC could be fixed with better natural AC, or with the Dodge feat.
Read how to make monster in the Bestiary page 290-297
In other words, if you want a CR 10 monster with Dragon type you need fewer HD to be a challenge as opposed to Fey type. Actually, there's a Monster CR vs HD table that shows just that.
Right ... and because it has lower HD, all of its save DCs are also lower. In fact, it's even worse in Pathfinder because now dragons have d12 instead of d10, so they'll lag every other creature in terms of save DCs.
I can work around it, it's just something that I noticed when working on the monster advancer JavaScript, which I think I'm going to have to rework extensively to make correct (for example, it doesn't calculate the advanced creature's BAB based on HD ... it uses the +1 or +1-2 to attack from the table to adjust the creature's attack, so I'm guessing the math for advanced creatures won't be right).
Well, it is what it is, so I'll just have to adapt.
It might be more fair/balanced/whatever than the 3.5e monster advancement rules, but holy moley is it slower to use :)
Read how to make monster in the Bestiary page 290-297
Not helpful. Those rules are what I'm talking about here :)
Besides, I'm talking about advancing monsters, not creating new ones. The rules are slightly different.