A heavy shield says you can't use you shield hand for anything else. the wood weighs 10 lbs the steel weighs 15 lbs. If I make a heavy steel shield mithral it would weigh 7.5 pounds which is 1.5 pounds heavier then a light steel shield (which allows you to carry things in your shield hand) and 2.5 pounds lighter then the heavy wooden shield which does not. Can I carry things in my shield hand such as potions if I am wearing a heavy steel shield made out of mithral?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
A heavy shield says you can't use you shield hand for anything else. the wood weighs 10 lbs the steel weighs 15 lbs. If I make a heavy steel shield mithral it would weigh 7.5 pounds which is 1.5 pounds heavier then a light steel shield (which allows you to carry things in your shield hand) and 2.5 pounds lighter then the heavy wooden shield which does not. Can I carry things in my shield hand such as potions if I am wearing a heavy steel shield made out of mithral?
I'd have to agree with Gorbacz.
While I get where you're coming from ("A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand...") the Mithril entry doesn't say anything about allowing you to use Mithril Shields any different from Steel ones, so I'd be disinclined to allow a character to hold anything in that hand.
Think of it as being lighter, but still to large and unwieldy too simply strap to the arm, thus probably having some kind of grip that occupies the hand.
I'd say no. The difference between heavy shield and light shield isn't just about the weight, it's also size and the way it attaches to your hand.
But in the core rules the description of how the 2 are worn is identical and it specifically states that the reason you cant carry things in your shield hand is because it is so heavy. That seems to imply that weight is indeed the issue, which is why I asked if that was little enough weight to still carry a potion or such. It is closer in weight to a light shield then a heavy but I just want to see is six lbs is the absolute weight limit for carrying something in your shield hand or if you can still do it if your shield weighs a bit more? Any input is welcome as this seems to be a bit of a gray area.
I'd say no. The difference between heavy shield and light shield isn't just about the weight, it's also size and the way it attaches to your hand.But in the core rules the description of how the 2 are worn is identical and it specifically states that the reason you cant carry things in your shield hand is because it is so heavy. That seems to imply that weight is indeed the issue, which is why I asked if that was little enough weight to still carry a potion or such. It is closer in weight to a light shield then a heavy but I just want to see is six lbs is the absolute weight limit for carrying something in your shield hand or if you can still do it if your shield weighs a bit more? Any input is welcome as this seems to be a bit of a gray area.
Im not meaning to argue and do see both your points but I feel as if it might be an issue of whether I can let go of the hand hold of the shield to carry something because it is light enough to do so. It is strapped to my wrist after all and even though it might be bigger if it is light enough it seems that letting go of those handholds might be feasible.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
Im not meaning to argue and do see both your points but I feel as if it might be an issue of whether I can let go of the hand hold of the shield to carry something because it is light enough to do so.I'd say no. The difference between heavy shield and light shield isn't just about the weight, it's also size and the way it attaches to your hand.But in the core rules the description of how the 2 are worn is identical and it specifically states that the reason you cant carry things in your shield hand is because it is so heavy. That seems to imply that weight is indeed the issue, which is why I asked if that was little enough weight to still carry a potion or such. It is closer in weight to a light shield then a heavy but I just want to see is six lbs is the absolute weight limit for carrying something in your shield hand or if you can still do it if your shield weighs a bit more? Any input is welcome as this seems to be a bit of a gray area.
I'm not sure what to tell you. The game doesn't sort shields by weight, it just has "Light" and "Heavy". Mithril Weapons aren't any easier to wield than Steel ones, so one can infer that the same should apply to Shields as well. If you wanted to rule that shields under a certain weight let you hold an item in that hand, you're welcome to Houserule it.
Personally, if I were to allow it, I'd probably have the character lose their Shield bonus so long as their hand is occupied, at the very least.
Im not meaning to argue and do see both your points but I feel as if it might be an issue of whether I can let go of the hand hold of the shield to carry something because it is light enough to do so.I'd say no. The difference between heavy shield and light shield isn't just about the weight, it's also size and the way it attaches to your hand.But in the core rules the description of how the 2 are worn is identical and it specifically states that the reason you cant carry things in your shield hand is because it is so heavy. That seems to imply that weight is indeed the issue, which is why I asked if that was little enough weight to still carry a potion or such. It is closer in weight to a light shield then a heavy but I just want to see is six lbs is the absolute weight limit for carrying something in your shield hand or if you can still do it if your shield weighs a bit more? Any input is welcome as this seems to be a bit of a gray area.I'm not sure what to tell you. The game doesn't sort shields by weight, it just has "Light" and "Heavy". Mithril Weapons aren't any easier to wield than Steel ones, so one can infer that the same should apply to Shields as well. If you wanted to rule that shields under a certain weight let you hold an item in that hand, you're welcome to Houserule it.
Personally, if I were to allow it, I'd probably have the character lose their Shield bonus so long as their hand is occupied, at the very least.
Thanks a lot for the input I really appreciate it. I see your point and am torn on this issue. If it is a balancing thing then clearly it should not be allowed. I think in real life with a shield set up this way and being that weight and size it would probably work to hold something. But its hard to decide if this makes sense to allow in the game. Certainly I agree about losing the shield bonus if you hold something, that makes a lot of sense. IDK tough call, thanks again for your feedback.
Yeah, I think this would come down to GM choice. I mean when mithral is applied to armor is makes it one category lighter, I could see where you could say something similar must happen to the shield as well. Always saw the problem with heavy shields being that if you took the arm out of the strap and had this big 15 pound thing flopping around on your arm you wouldn't be able to manipulate stuff. If it's lighter... Maybe? It would still be all up in your business though. If the GM dosen't like it, maybe see if he'd give you a percentage chance to drop what your holding or something. Or make it where it takes a round or two to get the shield back in place if you've been carrying something.
|
By RAW it doesn't become lighter because it does not say it does.
If you need a realism reason, because of the shape of heavy shields and the way you hold them to protect you, they rest more heavily on your hand grip then a light shield. Light shield are strapped to be held out, heavy shields held closer (and locked with the shield next to you to make a shield wall).
Yeah, I think this would come down to GM choice. I mean when mithral is applied to armor is makes it one category lighter, I could see where you could say something similar must happen to the shield as well. Always saw the problem with heavy shields being that if you took the arm out of the strap and had this big 15 pound thing flopping around on your arm you wouldn't be able to manipulate stuff. If it's lighter... Maybe? It would still be all up in your business though. If the GM dosen't like it, maybe see if he'd give you a percentage chance to drop what your holding or something. Or make it where it takes a round or two to get the shield back in place if you've been carrying something.Big difference here is that armor for the most part is worn mostly the same regardless of it's weight. However a heavy shield is worn differently than a light shield due to it's very shape. So despite the fact that it is lighter, the sheer bulk of the shield which isn't changed precludes putting anything else in that hand. This follows also the Pathfinder rulings on mithral breastplate. in that it's not worn any differently from regular steel breastplates, thus requiring the same proficiency.
So in effect, the benefits of a mithril heavy shield, is that it counts less of your encumbrance in weight, reduced armor check penalties and arcane spell failure chance. Proficiencies required and the way it's wielded are not changed.
Although it makes sense that people are drawing the comparisons between using certain types of weapons and wearing certain types of armor and mithral I believe that might not be at issue here. Yes it is clearly true and right that if you do not know how to fight with a great sword you still do not know how to fight with it if it becomes lighter. Likewise if you do not know how wear or fight in a breastplate armor you still do not know ow if it becomes lighter. Note here that if you do know how in every other way it becomes light armor meaning encumbrance, movement speed, resting in it an so forth.
However the issue with the heavy steel shield is not that same, as we are discussing a circumstance where the person does know how to fight with and use this shield. Further in the definition of the heavy shield it stipulates that the reason you can not carry things in your other hand is not that it is cumbersome or large but merely that it is too heavy to do this, meaning it carries to much weight. The light and heavy shield are worn in the same way, in their descriptions it stated clearly that a heavy shield will not allow you to carry something in your shield hand due to its weight and a light shield does allow it again due to its weight. The issue here is not whether he can still use the shield when it is lighter as he can either way but whether because the weight is reduced he can let go of that hand strap the same way he could with a light shield(which certainly does correlate to lighter in weight per description) to carry something in his shield hand. It seems it would because the reason you cannot do this is described as being due to the weight of the “heavy” shield which is now is not so heavy. I agree it might be more cumbersome due to its being larger and its shape and so perhaps there should be some form of penalty as some of you have suggested (such as losing part or all of your shield bonus) if you choose to carry something. But this should not stop you from doing so.
I do not believe that the comparison to mithral armor weapons and proficiency is not quite sound as the issue per the description of the shield itself is not proficiency but weight and of course the character in question is actually proficient in the shield. So yes of course it does not become a different shield, meaning yes you would need to be proficient with heavy shields and not just light shield to use a mithral heavy steel shield (much like a mithral breast plate) but will the reduced weight allow you to do things like let go the hand strap which you could not do when the shield was heavier (much like moving further with a mithral breast plate as opposed to a metal one). I feel it should.
The one reason I could think of that it should not be allowed would be game balancing. If this would make a character over powered then it would make sense not to allow it. Anyway that is my take. Good discussion, thanks again for all the input all!
By RAW it doesn't become lighter because it does not say it does.
Really? From page 155 of the core book:
An item made from mithral weighs half as much as
the same item made from other metals.
Also, the magic items section even lists a non-magical mithral heavy shield as a sample item, page 467. And interestingly enough, it has a weight listed of only 5 lbs, not the 7.5 lbs you would expect it to have when going by the info on page 155. It has the same spell failure chance that a light shield does and has no AC penalty, so it is better than any mundane shield listed in the equipment section.
So the only issue is the bulkiness of the shield, does the overall size still get in the way since the weight obviously would not? Since the descriptions of light and heavy shields make them sound the same in size, with only the weight being the difference, I would say that a mithral heavy shield would let you do the same thing as a light steel shield, and let you carry something in that hand without penalty.
By RAW it doesn't become lighter because it does not say it does.
Really? From page 155 of the core book:
An item made from mithral weighs half as much as
the same item made from other metals.Also, the magic items section even lists a non-magical mithral heavy shield as a sample item, page 467. And interestingly enough, it has a weight listed of only 5 lbs, not the 7.5 lbs you would expect it to have when going by the info on page 155. It has the same spell failure chance that a light shield does and has no AC penalty, so it is better than any mundane shield listed in the equipment section.
So the only issue is the bulkiness of the shield, does the overall size still get in the way since the weight obviously would not? Since the descriptions of light and heavy shields make them sound the same in size, with only the weight being the difference, I would say that a mithral heavy shield would let you do the same thing as a light steel shield, and let you carry something in that hand without penalty.
Oh wow, I did not know about the sample mithral heavy shield that really helps. And I see what your saying in that the difference between a heavy and light shield might just be the thickness of the metal instead of the size. Thanks a lot, I think that clears it up for me.