Using Iconic to fill a table

[miniaturepeddler]

I had a PFS yesterday and only 3 of the 4 players scheduled showed up.

So using the Play/Play/Play rule, I added an Iconic to the group to fill out the fourth slot.

I added Kyra the Cleric to the group and here is where the quesiton came up:

Player 1 "OMG, what an awful selection of spells, I want to go ahead and reselect spells for her."

Me (GM): "No I afraid the Iconic is as written."

Player 1: "Sigh"

Did I make the right call? Or should player groups be able to modify an iconic to fit their vision of a better character (ie select different/new spells)?

Thanks
Robyn

[Jason Lillis]

Correct decision!

[Chris Kenney]

Gotta disagree with the above. If it was gear he'd be right, but the cleric has spells available. The wizard iconic has a slim spellbook of alternate selections for just this reason, so the cleric should be allowed to change spells too. The default loadout is provided on two assumptions, lack of time and lack of 3.x rules experience. Clearly neither was the case here.

[Enevhar Aldarion]

But it is still not the players' call what the cleric's spells would be. The pregen in this case is being run by the GM and the GM is the one in charge of what the pregen does or does not do.

[Chris Kenney]

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:

But it is still not the players' call what the cleric's spells would be. The pregen in this case is being run by the GM and the GM is the one in charge of what the pregen does or does not do.

True. I did miss that part. Still, I would disagree with the basic point that the spells have to be prepared as-written every time. If the person playing the cleric (or wizard) is fine with the default loadout on the sheet, more power to them.

[Masika]

I support the GM's decision. My advice to the player is to make sure that they bring another play so they can make up the character that they want! :)

[MisterSlanky]

Masika wrote:

I support the GM's decision. My advice to the player is to make sure that they bring another play so they can make up the character that they want! :)

I support the GMs call on principle of him being the GM, but telling players that they should have brought along somebody else when they already are short-handed due to their fourth not coming hardly sends a good message to PFS players.

I just had the same situation this last weekend and the players chose Kyra as their tag-along DMPC. That being said, I disagree that her spell selection is terrible, in fact I think it's a great, simple, balanced set of spells that really represents clerics (Cure Light Wounds is her domain spell and makes sense with her background, and Bless is a great all-around level 1 buff). In fact, the list is especially important when you consider that Kyra may sometimes be run as a PC at the table when somebody new shows up without a sheet (although in those situations I do think you should allow the player to reselect spells).

[Alizor]

Personally, he's the GM and is playing the character. I agree that you cannot change out feats or equipment. But spells are memorized on a daily basis meaning that you should be able to change out the spell selection as you see fit (domain being limited to the two provided of course). If the GM doesn't want to, well he's playing the character. Personally though if I'm DMing and using the pregen I allow the other players a little leeway in "helping" to play the character. Meaning they can suggest spells and actions if they want to, although I'd be the final call.

[Masika]

There are ways of saying things and then there are ways of saying things... text is not always the best medium to get a point across.

One needs to read the table and the players. I would choose my words carefully, particularly in the company of strangers.

[Thod]

miniaturepeddler wrote:

I had a PFS yesterday and only 3 of the 4 players scheduled showed up.

So using the Play/Play/Play rule, I added an Iconic to the group to fill out the fourth slot.

I added Kyra the Cleric to the group and here is where the quesiton came up:

Player 1 "OMG, what an awful selection of spells, I want to go ahead and reselect spells for her."

Me (GM): "No I afraid the Iconic is as written."

Player 1: "Sigh"

Did I make the right call? Or should player groups be able to modify an iconic to fit their vision of a better character (ie select different/new spells)?

Thanks
Robyn

Correct decision.

While I'm open to discussion if the GM could change the spells memorized, it isn't up to the players to pick and choose.

Does player 1 also criticize spell selection of other players and would like to select for them as well? Kyra isn't played by him - so this isn't his call.

Thod

[Zizazat]

Thod wrote:

While I'm open to discussion if the GM could change the spells memorized, it isn't up to the players to pick and choose.

Word +1.

[miniaturepeddler]

Well the player has a good point:

Any cleric can spontaneous convert existing spells to Cure ___ wounds of the appropriate level. So why would you fill a slot with a cure spell when you would broaden the icon by having another spell in that slot and if you need the cure, THEN you would convert it.

It did make sense, but I wanted him/her to concentrate on his/her character.

Also, while I did put quotes in originating message, that isn't the exact wording but rather the gist.

:)

[MisterSlanky]

miniaturepeddler wrote:

Any cleric can spontaneous convert existing spells to Cure ___ wounds of the appropriate level. So why would you fill a slot with a cure spell when you would broaden the icon by having another spell in that slot and if you need the cure, THEN you would convert it.

Because it's the domain spell...

[Thod]

MisterSlanky wrote:

miniaturepeddler wrote:

Any cleric can spontaneous convert existing spells to Cure ___ wounds of the appropriate level. So why would you fill a slot with a cure spell when you would broaden the icon by having another spell in that slot and if you need the cure, THEN you would convert it.

Because it's the domain spell...

And the only alternative would be endure elements (Kyra is Sun and Healing).

Given the choice between the two I think Cure Light wounds is the more appropriate one for this level to have memorized.

And Sun / Healing are two great domains for a level 1 support cleric. When I used Kyra as level 1 NPC I burned through all 7 uses of Rebuke Death with her.

Thod

Edit - I just checked out the rules and it seems nothing prevents a cleric from changing a domain spell into a cure spell as far as I can tell. But to be honest - Cure Light Wounds or Endure Elements - what would player 1 have chosen. Given the choice with Kyra as healing support - Endure Elements would be rather out of character and only power munching would change it that way as the 'preferred' spell. Fine for a player to do with his own character - but I wouldn't lower myself to that level as GM to purely powerplay an NPC. The C stands for Character.
Unless of course the whole adventure is somewhere in the desert (Citadel of Flames springs to mind) or somewhere where you can expect it to be pretty cold.

[MisterSlanky]

Thod wrote:

Edit - I just checked out the rules and it seems nothing prevents a cleric from changing a domain spell into a cure spell as far as I can tell.

Except the part in the rules where it says "Domain spells cannot be used to cast spells spontaneously."

;-)

[Thod]

MisterSlanky wrote:

Thod wrote:

Edit - I just checked out the rules and it seems nothing prevents a cleric from changing a domain spell into a cure spell as far as I can tell.

Except the part in the rules where it says "Domain spells cannot be used to cast spells spontaneously."

;-)

Thanks - I thought this is the case but had no rules at hand. Must have been blind as I checked PFSRD for spontaneous casting and didn't spot what I was looking for. Should't do that while doing other stuff.

Thod

Okay - I wasn't blind - just at the wrong place. The dutch Pathfinder Wiki omits this tiny bit of information. PFSRD contains it.

[Imper1um]

Depending on how much time was allowed, (e.g. they rested), I would have allowed the player to switch out the spells during rest.

[Masika]

miniaturepeddler wrote:

Any cleric can spontaneous convert existing spells to Cure ___ wounds of the appropriate level. So why would you fill a slot with a cure spell when you would broaden the icon by having another spell in that slot and if you need the cure, THEN you would convert it.

This is not also accurate in the way you have stated this. Any GOOD cleric can spontaneously cast a cleric spell (not a domain spell) as a cure spell.

A NEUTRALLY aligned cleric can pick either to go cure or cause. In saying that, I believe the iconic character has a good alignment. A moot point but I wanted to eliminate any misunderstanding that any cleric can change spells for cures - an evil cleric can not. Hence you might see an evil cleric with cure light wounds as a base spell.

[emirikol]

This is one of those learning opportunities for players.

The players need to realize that if they don't want a crappy cleric, they'd better beat the pavement to find an extra player or two ;)

If I may, I'd like to suggest that you guys put up PLAYERS WANTED ads at the following locations:
* Grand Lodge forum
* Paizo players wanted forum (yes, this one too)
* Enworld
* RPG.net
* Your local meet-up groups
* Put a tear-off ad at each of your local game, used book, and hobby stores
* Your local PFS yahoogroup

All the best,

jh

[Masika]

Here here emirikol.

My original point entirely. :)