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If I join a combat late (One for which an initiative has been rolled.), but am hidden and thus the only one aware, do I get a surprise action?
For example I'm hidden in a tree for multiple rounds watching a battle, but not participating. No one is aware of me, should I even be on the initiative board?
If I join a combat late (One for which an initiative has been rolled.), but am hidden and thus the only one aware, do I get a surprise action?
For example I'm hidden in a tree for multiple rounds watching a battle, but not participating. No one is aware of me, should I even be on the initiative board?
As far a I know, you should be on the initiative board as usual. Eventhough you are hidden in a tree, you have the opportunity to join the battle at all times.
Skipping a turn does allow you to delay your actions, so you can join in, at whatever time in the initiative order you like.But I wouldn't give you a surprise action, since it would break up the combat of everybody else.
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In this particular case I was the only PC actually playing, I was just witnessing a large battle that had turn by turn consequences for which the GM had elected to give initiatives to the various factions. I was well hidden and had every advantage. When I chose to enter combat, all factions were unaware of me.
So I guess my question is, can the GM call for initiative even though no enemy's are aware of me?
In my opinion this can be an easy way for a GM to nerf surprise actions.
The "surprise" round is there because one side didn't draw their weapons. AFAIK (self-admittedly very little), that's the main reason behind their flat-footedness.
However, I'm not against giving your character several bonuses because of his hiding place. He could attack and, in the midst of the fighting below (where other archers might be as well), his arrow might be mistaken as coming from one side or the other (unless you favor fancy arrows with black feathers and a polka-dotted shaft :-)
IIRC, the surprise round in the middle of a fight was explained in the 3.0 rulebooks but was skipped in later versions.
The goal was to allow a 3rd party some kind of surprise attack in the middle of the battle. To be honest, I never saw this rule used in 10 years of 3.x.
On the other hand, in the OP case, I don't think it's really important. The DM should have described the battle and, when the PC want to act, give him a surpise round before rolling initiatives for everyone ...
You do know that just because you act in the surprise round doesn't mean your enemies are flatfooted, right?
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.
Based on that, your enemies here have already had a chance to act, so they are not flat-footed.
And based on that there is no benefit at all for you to take a surprise round. In fact, it would hurt you if you did take a surprise round becaue during a surprise round, you only get one action. You cannot, for example, move and attack.
So basically you're saying here: "My DM told me to take a normal round, with a move and a standard action, and I wanted to tell him to only give me just one action instead of two."
So, just take your normal round and be glad your DM isn't forcing you to lose any actions.
Someone else also told me that new combatants come in at the top of the initiative order, but wasn't able to site a reference. Anyone else know anything about this?
No, there's no need for such a rule.
There are only a couple of possibilities here:
1. You just this very insant kicked open a door or walked around a corner and there, right in front of you, is a battle. You immediately charge into the fight. In this case, you roll your initiative like everyone else (after all, didn't everyone else enter the fight just as fast as they could?).
2. You come upon a battle and watch it for a while. When you're ready, you charge into the fight at the exact moment that works best for you. In this case, the best moment might not be the top of the initiative order. For example, you might see the helpless princess run right into the mean old ogre's threat range and you want to run in there and save her, but you have to do it right now, this round, before the ogre kills her.
What should have happened here, in retrospect, is the instant your character began watching this battle, the DM should have told you to roll initiative. This way, if you wanted to do option #1 you could - right as soon as your turn in the initiative order came up. Or, on your turn, you could do what you actually did, use a Delay action to go later. In fact, you "Delayed" for multiple rounds.
You can Delay into the next round and act at any time, even first.
So, had this fight been run according to the exact rules, judging by the way you described it, you saw a fight begin. Everyone rolls initiative (including you). On your first turn you say "I delay". On your next few turns you keep saying "I delay". Finally after multiple rounds have gone by, you decide to act on whatever initiative you want (you delayed last round so you can act first this round, or last, or anywhere in between). As soon as you say I act, the DM sets your initiative to be at this spot for the rest of the fight (your original initiative roll doesn't matter anymore) and you take a full turn (move and standard action), not a surprise round.
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What should have happened here, in retrospect, is the instant your character began watching this battle, the DM should have told you to roll initiative. This way, if you wanted to do option #1 you could - right as soon as your turn in the initiative order came up. Or, on your turn, you could do what you actually did, use a Delay action to go later. In fact, you "Delayed" for multiple rounds.
So if I'm at the arena watching two gladiators fight, then all 10,000 spectators are in on initiative as well???
No surprise for me when I attempt to assassinate someone in the crowd, because there is a fight already happening?
My contention is I shouldn't be on the imitative board until an enemy is aware of me.
Regardless thanks everyone for your input, and letting me muse a bit.
You do know that just because you act in the surprise round doesn't mean your enemies are flatfooted, right?
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.Based on that, your enemies here have already had a chance to act, so they are not flat-footed.
Well, they might be in battle, but if they failed their perception check to detect him, they very much are flat-footed - as they're not aware of the PC. They're aware of the other combatants and not flat-footed against them, but if the PC is hidden...definitely.
This poses another problem tho, what happens when reinforcements arrive? Especially if they're invisible or well-hidden? I've played it as a surprise rnd, but never been 100% that i'm doing it right. Anyone encountered this problem before?
So if I'm at the arena watching two gladiators fight, then all 10,000 spectators are in on initiative as well???
What should have happened here, in retrospect, is the instant your character began watching this battle, the DM should have told you to roll initiative. This way, if you wanted to do option #1 you could - right as soon as your turn in the initiative order came up. Or, on your turn, you could do what you actually did, use a Delay action to go later. In fact, you "Delayed" for multiple rounds.
Technically, everything you said here is true. But it's definitely not practical. A much more practical solution is to only roll initiative for those who have decided to be involved in the fight, which usually means none of the spectators.
If by chance some over-eager fan decides to jump down into the arena and charge into the fight, or wants to whip out a crossbow and help his guy win by shooting the other gladiator, he can roll initiative as soon as that decision is made. He can also Delay on his turn, as often as he wants, if he wishes to find the right moment to attack.
No surprise for me when I attempt to assassinate someone in the crowd, because there is a fight already happening?
And since we're talking about the gladiators down there in the sand, if you do not plan on being involved in that fight but you do plan on knifing another spectator (also not involved in the gladiators' fight), then what we really have here is two fights with their own initiatives.
It's quite possible to have many separate fights with many separate battles, all in the same arena, or same marketplace, or same battlefield. The DM does not have to merge them all into one big impossible battle. In fact, the only he needs to worry about is the battle you are in - after you're done he can just tell you who won the other battles, make it up, you know, be a story-teller. Or he can roll all the dice while you wait so you can both find out randomly what happens. Up to you guys, really.
Note that your fight doesn't start until the two combatants (you and the guy you're assassinating) begin combat. And if your enemy is unaware, he will definitely be flat-footed until his first turn in the initiative order of your combat. Which of course means you can have a suprise round because you are aware of your actions and he is not, hence, Surprise!
My contention is I shouldn't be on the imitative board until an enemy is aware of me.
This is entirely wrong. Imagine this as a simple case:
You are watching a town guard fighting a troll. Neither one is aware of you, so by your contention, you are off of the initiative track. Tho guard and the troll are going at it, each trying to slaughter the other, trading blows furiously. They're evenly matched (the guard has a half dozen fighter levels) so this fight could easily last 10 rounds or more.
You decide to sneak down the street, into an alley, along the blacksmith's back wall, and come up behind the troll. All told, this is about 200 total feet.
**The guard attacks. The troll attacks. You move.
Wait, why don't you move before they attack each other? OK, let's do it then:
**You move, the guard attacks, the troll attacks.
Wait, can't you move while they both attack? It's not like you stop moving and wait for them, is it? OK, let's try that:
**You move, the guard attacks, you keep moving, the troll attacks, you move some more.
All right, now you're getting somewhere. Wait, just how far do you move? You have a movement rate of 30' (for example) so should you move 30'? Why not 40'? Or 50'? I mean, you are not on initiative, right? Move as far as you want.
**You move 50', the guard attacks, you keep moving another 60', the troll attacks, you move some more, this time 90' because you really hurry.
Sweet! You just moved 200' which conveniently was just as far as you needed to go. So, you might as well attack since you're not on the initiative track yet:
**You move 50', the guard attacks, you keep moving another 60', the troll attacks, you move some more, this time 90' because you really hurry, and then you attack the troll! Yay!
Now let's compare that to what would happen if the guard and troll knew you were there:
**You roll initiative, high enough to beat the troll but not the guard. The guard attacks, you move 60' (a double move), the troll attacks. Next round the guard attacks, you move 60' (a double move), the troll attacks. The third round the guard attacks, you move 60' (a double move), the troll attacks. The fourth round the guard attacks and you move the remaiing 20' and attack the troll.
See the difference?
By your contention, we don't know when to move you or how far. If we loosely interpret that, say, by leaving it to our imaginations and coming up with a cool-sounding narrative, we might manage to move 200' around a building and still hit the troll, all before the guard can take two turns. But when we work it out by the rules, we find out it takes you four rounds to get there and the guard gets 4 attacks while you move (instead of only 1 attack).
That's quite a difference, and that's why you do the whole thing on initiative rounds, even when nobody knows you're there.
Now, I admit, if you and your DM have a fairly firm grasp of the rules, we could all save time by saying "Hmmm, 200' feet, that will take you three full moves (200/60 = 3) with a remaining 20 feet that you can move on your 4th round and still attack. So roll initiative, and on the 4th round you can attack the troll." That's easier than trying to draw it all out on a battlemat and move your figure each round, if you want to do it that way - but you need a strong understanding of the core rules to just work it out on the fly.
Or you could just make it up and do what you want, but if really wanted to do that, you probably wouldn't be here asking your original questions.
Why wouldn't you run (4*move speed) for 2 rnds instead?
Regardless, what if you're not aware of the guard and troll fighting and just happen upon them halfway thru the fight? Surprise round? Not?
Why not?
Well, they might be in battle, but if they failed their perception check to detect him, they very much are flat-footed - as they're not aware of the PC. They're aware of the other combatants and not flat-footed against them, but if the PC is hidden...definitely.You do know that just because you act in the surprise round doesn't mean your enemies are flatfooted, right?
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.Based on that, your enemies here have already had a chance to act, so they are not flat-footed.
You're close, but this isn't quite true. Flatfooted is a condition. You can find it in the Conditions list at the back of the core book. Conditions are all-or-nothing. You are either blind or you're not. You are either stunned or you're not. You are either prone or you're not.
And you are either Flat-footed or you're not, just as my quote above explicitly states - you have either had your first turn in this combat or you haven't.
What is true is this:
If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC
And since your enemy is unaware of you, or at least unaware of your attack, there is no way for him to react to your blow, so he loses his DEX bonus to AC. Your DM might give him a Perception check to see the attack coming in time to react - that's situational and up to the DM to make the call at the time.
This poses another problem tho, what happens when reinforcements arrive? Especially if they're invisible or well-hidden? I've played it as a surprise rnd, but never been 100% that i'm doing it right. Anyone encountered this problem before?
It comes up a lot. I described what to do in the post just two posts above yours. And it's not a surprise round. Why on earth does everyone want to screw themselves with a surprise round?
Maybe it's just that the word sounds cool. Oooh, we get a surprise round! Yay! Now we're going to kick butt! What? Oh really? We only get half our actions? Why? Because that's how Surprise rounds work? Well, then, I'll just take half an action because I want a surprise round!
No, when you (or reinforcements, or whatever) join a battle in progress, the new arrivals roll initiative. On their turn, they can take a normal full round worth of actions. Not a half-turn surprise round that limits them, but a full round to do what they want. It's as easy as that.
Sure, sure, they might "take the enemy by surprise" but that is NOT a surprise round.
I'd make anyone who didn't notice you behind the tree flat-footed to you on your first turn. You wouldn't get a surprise round. The combatants are already fighting with weapons drawn so it would be silly to treat it as an ambush against a completely unprepared party.
Surprise in mid combat:
Two combatants fighting each other, and they are not aware of you: they are denied ther Dex bonus once you act against one of them. You are effectively concealed. They get their dex bonuses back (having lost them only against you) once they can act next.
Initiative in existing combat:
Initiative is for determing action of PC/NPCs once things start, but if things have already started and you enter, then the DM sets the initiative order for you since he is saying where in the initiative order you are entering into the picture. Sure, you can dice roll to determine where you enter into the picture, but usually you are becoming aware of the fight at some point in the fights initiative order which effectively is at the end of your turn (or during a move equivalent action - thereby giving you an effective surprise round).