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Dear James, I have a few (long-standing) questions regarding the Wall of Thorns spell (Core Rulebook page 367). I'd be really grateful if you could clarify these to me. Thanks a lot!
1. Precisely, what can a creature do (i.e. which actions can it take) while inside a Wall of Thorns (WoT)?
2. If a creature can take an action (other than attempting to free itself with a Strength check), will it take damage as if it moved even if it remains in the same square? [Question credit: Laurefindel]
3. Does the WoT provide a concealment/cover modifier to those inside? Does it block the line-of-effect of spells?
4A. If a creature is blocked inside the wall, can it still attack with melee weapons opponents which happen to be on squares within its reach? Can it attack target outside the wall with ranged weapons or spells?
Can it attack other targets inside the wall with ranged weapons or spells?
4B. Viceversa, can creatures from outside make melee attacks to the creatures inside the wall (and within reach)?
Can creatures from outside target the creatures inside with ranged attacks and spells?
4C. Do breath weapons and gas-based effects (e.g. cloudkill) affect the creatures inside the wall of thorns?
Thank you.
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I'm sure not him, but some of these questions seem like they're answered in the spell to me. I'll try to be specific about where and why.
1. Wall of thorns doesn't directly affect your actions when you're inside unless you attempt to move through it. As in, cast if you want, fight if you want *as long as you're not moving through squares. Ect.
2. "Any creature forced into or attempting to move through a wall of thorns takes piercing damage per round of movement..."
You only take damage if you initiate movement, such as a 5 ft step, a withdrawal action, a move action, so on and so forth. Simply standing in a square and casting a spell, or attacking the wall, doesn't cause damage as it isn't movement in game terms.
3. This is a good question. Wall of thorns lists itself as thickly tangled brambles, and the name of the spell implies that it's an actual wall. I'm looking forward to seeing what James has to say on it. Personally, I would go negative since it's not listed as a material, and not provide cover bonuses.
4. Nothing in the spell mentions affecting a creature taking any of those actions. Depending on whether or not the wall provides cover, that would be the only effect.
4b. Again, sure. They should just be careful not to enter the spikes themselves.
4c. Again, nothing in the spell prohibits those elements from working, so they would have full effect. Possibly setting the Wall of Thorns on fire.
Well, while we wait for James, we can draw a few inferences.
A wall of thorns can be breached by slow work with edged weapons. Chopping away at the wall creates a safe passage 1 foot deep for every 10 minutes of work. Normal fire cannot harm the barrier, but magical fire burns it away in 10 minutes.
This must be some really nasty stuff. Give me a machete and 10 minutes and I can carve my way through more than just one foot in any kind of forest or jungle I have ever seen or heard of. I mean, that's nearly two hours to move 10'. If real forests or jungles were that nasty, those boys in the Vietnam War would still be looking for each other and probably wouldn't have fired a shot yet...
Given that, I think it's safe to say that this Wall of Thorns is some dense growth.
Undergrowth Vines, roots, and short bushes cover much of the ground in a forest. A space covered with light undergrowth costs 2 squares of movement to move into, and provides concealment. Undergrowth increases the DC of Acrobatics and Stealth checks by 2 because the leaves and branches get in the way. Heavy undergrowth costs 4 squares of movement to move into and provides concealment with a 30% miss chance (instead of the usual 20%). It increases the DC of Acrobatics checks by 5. Heavy undergrowth is easy to hide in, granting a +5 circumstance bonus on Stealth checks. Running and charging are impossible. Squares with undergrowth are often clustered together. Undergrowth and trees aren't mutually exclusive; it's common for a 5-foot square to have both a tree and undergrowth.
There, I bolded the cool part. Clearly, the kind of foliage that takes nearly two hours with a machete to move 10' must surely count as Heavy undergroth, right?
So, I think it's fair to apply these modifiers on anyone inside, even if the wall is only 5' thick (you only need 5' of darkness to get total concealment, or 5' of dim lighting to get concealment, so you should only need 5' of this Wall of Thorns to get the benefits).
Not exactly the official words of JJ, but I think this works well enough for me until he chimes in and tells me otherwise.
Creative Director
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1. Precisely, what can a creature do (i.e. which actions can it take) while inside a Wall of Thorns (WoT)?
A wall of thorns doesn't magically paralyze creatures or otherwise rob them of ability. All it does is create a difficult to navigate barrier that does damage. Someone trapped in a wall of thorns can take any action it can normally take. Some of those actions will be hampered by the thorns (spellcasting, for example, requires a Concentration check if you're injured or suffer continuous damage or are entangled in something like a wall of thorns; attacking is not stopped but if you can't reach your target through the wall because it slows you down too much, you obviously can't use melee attacks.)
2. If a creature can take an action (other than attempting to free itself with a Strength check), will it take damage as if it moved even if it remains in the same square? [Question credit: Laurefindel]
Only an attempt to move through a wall of thorns causes damage from the wall. If you stay motionless and do something else, you don't take damage from the thorns. "Remaining motionless" to avoid taking damage means "not moving to another square."
3. Does the WoT provide a concealment/cover modifier to those inside? Does it block the line-of-effect of spells?
The spell itself doesn't come out and say it, but it does describe the effect as "very tough, pliable, tangled brush." Page 426 talks about heavy undergrowth, which is what I would qualify a wall of thorns as. There, heavy undergrowth provides concealment (in fact, heavy undergrowth's concealment creates a 30% miss chance, not the normal 20%). I would therefore say that a wall of thorns provides concealment and interacts with such things as spellcasting and ranged attacks as appropriate.
4A. If a creature is blocked inside the wall, can it still attack with melee weapons opponents which happen to be on squares within its reach? Can it attack target outside the wall with ranged weapons or spells?
Can it attack other targets inside the wall with ranged weapons or spells?
Yes. It can attack any creatures it has reach to normally without penalty. Range weapons and spells work as well, but must contend with the fact that the thorns grant concealment. They're not so dense that they block line of sight, though.
4B. Viceversa, can creatures from outside make melee attacks to the creatures inside the wall (and within reach)?
Can creatures from outside target the creatures inside with ranged attacks and spells?
Yes, but see above regarding concealment and reach and all that.
4C. Do breath weapons and gas-based effects (e.g. cloudkill) affect the creatures inside the wall of thorns?
Yes. Unless such attacks are specifically hampered by concealment (which most are not). Remember the last line of the spell's description that says magical fire will burn it away in 10 minutes, so a single round of fiery breath weapon isn't going to clear anything out.
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A wall of thorns doesn't magically paralyze creatures or otherwise rob them of ability. All it does is create a difficult to navigate barrier that does damage. Someone trapped in a wall of thorns can take any action it can normally take.
Hi James,
thanks a lot for taking the time of replying to my questions! I really appreciated that! :)I was quite confused on how this spell worked and the clarifications you provided are really helpful to me and my gaming group (and also to many other people on this forum, I hope).
I find that sometimes the spell and magic items descriptions in the core rulebook tend to be too concise, and/or would really benefit a lot from a few examples of how they work "in practice".
But of course I am also aware that the Pathfinder rulebook is already very thick, so maybe adding additional content might have been impractical. I hope therefore that clarifications and examples will be able to find their proper place in the (IMO much-needed) FAQs that - if what I've read in this forum is correct - you have been compiling for some time.