What is the DC for wild shape?
If you use a polymorph spell to take on a form with an ability (for example poison), its DC is equal to the spell's DC, but wild shape isn't a spell, so what is the DC? Supernatural abilities usually have a DC of 10 + 1/2HD + Cha or Con, but as far as I can tell, it isn't specified for wild shape.
When in doubt use the spell that the ability mimics. Beast shape 1 is a level 3 spell, so the DC would be 10 + 3(spell level) + charisma(because it is a supernatural ability). As new wild shapes becomes available the DC will increase, because it is mimicing a higher level spell.
He got it from reading the magic section:
"Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +20 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form. "
Bold part is the important part for you.
Similarly, can you explain why you use Charisma? A lot of supernatural abilities use Constitution, and I'm not aware that it says Charisma is the default anywhere.
Because it is the DC of the wild shape ability which is mimicing a spell. Druids use Wisdom for their casting stat, but a lot of supernatural abilities use charisma. It will be one of those 2. I flipped a coin.
Unfortunately, wild shape does not state what casting stat it uses.
The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
While it is odd for a supernatural ability, the statement Abraham points out from the polymorph school description actually seems indicate wild shape would have the DC modifier of the druids spell casting stat, wisdom. As it is a PC and not a generic monster, as well as one of the class' main abilities, it makes sense to have it based off the primary stat too.
I'm curious to know what the DC would be too.
I would put the DC of all abilities at 10+Spell Level+Wis Mod if using Polymorph as your guidelines. I also believe this is how it is intended in RAW. A house rule to make it more level based would be 10+ 1/2 level+ Wis mod in line with other class based abilities such as bloodlines and domains.
The spell level is based off of the spell used to mimic the wild shape.
So at level 4 & 5 it would be based off of a level 3 spell.
At level 6 & 7 it would be a level 4 spell.
At 8 & 9 level a 5th level spell.
At 10 & 11 level it is a 6th level spell.
And finally at 12+ level it caps off at a 7th level spell.
It makes more sense to use the caster's HD + relevant modifier, which is normally con or cha.
It makes more sense to use the caster's HD + relevant modifier, which is normally con or cha.
Agreed and what I would house rule if I was house ruling on the subject... but rules are what they are stated above currently.
So it's thankful that the *Shape spells are only in one spell list, isn't it?
If Beast Shape I was SomeClass 2 / Sorcerer 3 / SomeOtherClass 4, we wouldn't be able to figure its DC for the hapless Druid...
And I'd use Constitution (for knowing one's body when it changes shape).
...to be errataed.
It makes more sense to use the caster's HD + relevant modifier, which is normally con or cha.Agreed and what I would house rule if I was house ruling on the subject... but rules are what they are stated above currently.
I just realized I used the wrong formula for the DC, but I think my point was received.
I do think the rule entry that directs us to the spell is correct though. I just wont be using it.
It makes more sense to use the caster's HD + relevant modifier, which is normally con or cha.Agreed and what I would house rule if I was house ruling on the subject... but rules are what they are stated above currently.
The rules are stated. It uses 10 + spell level + casting stat, but the relevant casting stat is still unclear. I can make a good case for using...
1. Wisdom(because it is the druid's casting stat)2. Charisma(because wildshape is a supernatural caster ability)
3. Constitution(if the ability was from a physical attack like a snake poison)
4. Use the ability modifier that the creature uses(which may change from one form to the next)
What is the DC for wild shape?
If you use a polymorph spell to take on a form with an ability (for example poison), its DC is equal to the spell's DC, but wild shape isn't a spell, so what is the DC? Supernatural abilities usually have a DC of 10 + 1/2HD + Cha or Con, but as far as I can tell, it isn't specified for wild shape.
Good question; I asked the same thing over a year ago, during the Beta. Never got a response, though.
It makes more sense to use the caster's HD + relevant modifier, which is normally con or cha.Agreed and what I would house rule if I was house ruling on the subject... but rules are what they are stated above currently.The rules are stated. It uses 10 + spell level + casting stat, but the relevant casting stat is still unclear. I can make a good case for using...
1. Wisdom(because it is the druid's casting stat)
2. Charisma(because wildshape is a supernatural caster ability)
3. Constitution(if the ability was from a physical attack like a snake poison)
4. Use the ability modifier that the creature uses(which may change from one form to the next)
If its going off of the spell(official rule) then I would use the caster's primary stat.
EDIT: DC of abilities granted by Wildshape. Right.
It makes sense to use the caster stat. Though it is probably raw to calculate it the way it is calculated for the animal (this being an irrelevant question in 3.5 because you gain all stats of the creature).
Maybe there is something in the Shapeshifter variant in PHB 2
Ok here's my take on it:
The druid using wild shape would use his wisdom.
My pseudo-logic in this case:
1. The ability functions like the spell*
2. The druid casts spells with wisdom
3. There for "casting" this spell would be done with his wisdom if he were to cast it.
It makes more sense to use the caster's HD + relevant modifier, which is normally con or cha.Agreed and what I would house rule if I was house ruling on the subject... but rules are what they are stated above currently.The rules are stated. It uses 10 + spell level + casting stat, but the relevant casting stat is still unclear. I can make a good case for using...
1. Wisdom(because it is the druid's casting stat)
2. Charisma(because wildshape is a supernatural caster ability)
3. Constitution(if the ability was from a physical attack like a snake poison)
4. Use the ability modifier that the creature uses(which may change from one form to the next)
Honestly I don't see where it is unclear, when casting a spell there is typically a statistic that modifies the DC which is called out in the class/race/whatever's description. The polymorph school says the DC would be equal to the DC of the spell that changed you. If a cleric uses a spell of the polymorph type, they would use their wisdom. If a sorcerer uses a spell of the polymorph type, they would use their charisma. If a wizard used a spell of the polymorph type, they would use their intelligence. If a creature from the bestiary used a spell of the polymorph type, they would use whatever stat was stated in their description. As a druid is using the beast shape spell from the polymorph school they would use their casting stat as detailed in the class description. Wisdom. That it is a supernatural effect doesn't change the rules for this case. Spell like abilities and Supernatural abilities in my experience are mainly different with regardless to how they are handled by SR (and following that AoO), as this effect is solely personal it doesn't really matter.
EDIT: DC of abilities granted by Wildshape. Right.
It makes sense to use the caster stat. Though it is probably raw to calculate it the way it is calculated for the animal (this being an irrelevant question in 3.5 because you gain all stats of the creature).
Maybe there is something in the Shapeshifter variant in PHB 2
The DC of wildshape and the DC of abilities are two completely seperate things technically. The polymorph school overrides this distinction however, it keeps the caster from suffering MAD to some degree and makes sure the abilities are somewhat useful as they will be based on a strong stat for that caster. It does lead to some odd situations though, look at trip. A druid may have a fairly low strength in a point buy system (lets say 8-10)but if they beast shape II into a wolf or dog with the trip ability they will have a much higher trip DC then would be normal. It is odd, but not really broken given the limit on which shapes you can take.
I do not believe trip would use the wild shape DC. That is just a CMB type of action with the wolf bonus. The wildshape DC is for things like poison bites and what not. Unless I am way off base and the trip from a wolf allows a reflex save or something outside of the CMB/CMD type of actions.
Honestly I don't see where it is unclear, when casting a spell there is typically a statistic that modifies the DC which is called out in the class/race/whatever's description. The polymorph school says the DC would be equal to the DC of the spell that changed you. If a cleric uses a spell of the polymorph type, they would use their wisdom. If a sorcerer uses a spell of the polymorph type, they would use their charisma. If a wizard used a spell of the polymorph type, they would use their intelligence. If a creature from the bestiary used a spell of the polymorph type, they would use whatever stat was stated in their description. As a druid is using the beast shape spell from the polymorph school they would use their casting stat as detailed in the class description. Wisdom. That it is a supernatural effect doesn't change the rules for this case. Spell like abilities and Supernatural abilities in my experience are mainly different with regardless to how they are handled by SR (and following that AoO), as this effect is solely personal it doesn't really matter.It makes more sense to use the caster's HD + relevant modifier, which is normally con or cha.Agreed and what I would house rule if I was house ruling on the subject... but rules are what they are stated above currently.The rules are stated. It uses 10 + spell level + casting stat, but the relevant casting stat is still unclear. I can make a good case for using...
1. Wisdom(because it is the druid's casting stat)
2. Charisma(because wildshape is a supernatural caster ability)
3. Constitution(if the ability was from a physical attack like a snake poison)
4. Use the ability modifier that the creature uses(which may change from one form to the next)
Yes and no.
The Wild shape ability mimics spell casting, but it is a supernatural ability. Thus, it is not the druid casting a spell. The stat dependency for the ability is not specified, leaving us to guess. Wisdom is a good guess, but it is just that a guess.
I do not believe trip would use the wild shape DC. That is just a CMB type of action with the wolf bonus. The wildshape DC is for things like poison bites and what not. Unless I am way off base and the trip from a wolf allows a reflex save or something outside of the CMB/CMD type of actions.
I do agree with you and was going to post along those lines until I went back to re-read the polymorph school (bold being the important wording):
In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
Then go look at the "benefits" provided by each of the spells:
climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent.
climb 60 feet, fly 60 feet (good maneuverability), swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, grab, pounce, and trip.
burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet, blindsense 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, constrict, ferocity, grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web.
burrow 60 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 120 feet (good maneuverability), swim 120 feet, blindsense 60 feet, darkvision 90 feet, low-light vision, scent, tremorsense 60 feet, breath weapon, constrict, ferocity, grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, rend, roar, spikes, trample, trip, and web.
DCs for movement make no sense, nor do DCs for senses in almost every case (scent is a perception check the DC is based on the opponent not the user of the ability) which leaves DCs for the combat abilities. I will say it probably isn't as intended but what is intended and what is written as a ruling aren't the same. As it stands the rules say the DC for the ability is equal to the DC of the spell that changed the character's shape, not figured out like a normal CMB. Again odd to say the least.
Yes and no.
The Wild shape ability mimics spell casting, but it is a supernatural ability. Thus, it is not the druid casting a spell. The stat dependency for the ability is not specified, leaving us to guess. Wisdom is a good guess, but it is just that a guess.
The druid is most definitely the one casting/using/initiating the ability. The distinctions between spell like abilities and supernatural abilities are documented in the rules. One creature could cast a spell as a spell like ability and another creature could cast the exact same spell as a supernatural ability. Difference?
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled and counterspelled as normal.Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table 16–1 for a summary of the types of special abilities.
IIRC the ability to cast spells is actually defined in the rules as a SP ability. Supernatural abilities are far superior to spells and spell like abilities. They are very rarely given as a way to cast a simple spell and are typically reserved for abilities that don't lend themselves to being duplicated easily by spells or abilities that should be more "hardy" than your typical spell it seems. Because of that usually in the description of the SU ability the break down of the DC and mechanics are given. Wildshape has no extra rules for the DC ("This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here."), so we go to the spell which has a defined DC. Given how wildshape was nerfed I would rather error on benefit to the class than say the DC is a flat 10+spell level and no stat modifier because one is not explicitly given (precedent being the DC of a magic item where the DC is the lowest possible for that spell, a wand of magic missle has a DC of 11 even if the crafter had an 18 stat)