Recently, we've picked back up an old campaign that was shelved. In it, the campaign centric character was my mystic theurge. I was all for converting to pathfinder and I absolutely love the system, but people that know the game (3.5/Pathfinder) know that mystic theurge is not where it should be.
Is there any word on a mystic theurge revision in the upcoming DM book? If not, has anyone made any headway into building a competitive theurge? I'm not here to debate whether or not the theurge is good, so if you disagree with me, that's fine, but I'm not here to argue that point. I was given the option by the DM (because of the state of the PrC) to convert the character as 100% cleric, but unfortunately, being a mystic theurge was centric to the character, and I couldn't in good conscience do it. (Cleric of Mystra, story had a lot to do with his dual casting abilities, etc.)
So basically, if you're in agreement with me about the state of this PrC, let me know what luck you've had in playing it up to par without Practiced Spellcasting and Divine Metamagic + Nightsticks. At the moment, I've geared him completely up for survivability (stacking AC, saves, and HP) as I couldn't find any better way to use his feats. Currently, the character is 3/3/3.
edit: I should have mentioned that anything outside of the core books isn't an option. We're using the base rules, so the +2 CL trait that I've seen mentioned isn't an option.
I'm aware of the Pathfinder MT revamp. My post comes in agreement to what you said: that it still sucks. (a ton without full CL in at least one of the classes)
I saw on a very old archived thread, talk of them revamping some of the PrCs from the FPRPG in the upcoming DM book. But whether or not that was just internet blab I do not know.
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The DM book won't have any new or revised PrCs. The Advanced Player's Guide will have some new PrC stuff, but AFAIK revision of MT is not on the menu. The Witch base class is supposed to fill the combo caster niche, since it's not really possible to get the MT concept anywhere (without breaking that whole backwards compatibility thing).
I really do not see them changing any of the core PRC's as they are the default power level. I would not expect 3.5 style PRC that gain everything and give nothing up. Your pretty much are gonna see the current PRC as the norm power level wise.
Sigh.
All of this could (almost) be fixed with the simple conversion of Practiced Spellcaster. Mystic Theurge should have it baked into the class. =/
The humorous thing is that once I resigned myself to not really having any decent feats to take (as metamagic isn't really an option), I had resolved myself to being the parties crafter and simply taking several crafting feats. And then the caster level issue reared its ugly head again.
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Practised Spellcaster does not fix the problem of you being able to cast 2nd level spells at Clr3/Wiz3/MT1 while straight casters get 4th spell level at the same time. Neither does it give you extra standard actions to actually benefit from having a zillion of spells ready during a fight. And those are the major problems of MT, CL is actually a secondary issue.
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Recently, we've picked back up an old campaign that was shelved. In it, the campaign centric character was my mystic theurge. I was all for converting to pathfinder and I absolutely love the system, but people that know the game (3.5/Pathfinder) know that mystic theurge is not where it should be.
You have arguably passed the worst of the Theurge levels already. That said, it doesn't get any better until that single nice little bump you get at 10th level when you can double cast.
I've pretty much written off the multiclassing prestige classes, Pathfinder helped a lot but backwards compatibility pretty much nerfed these classes from go. Mystic Theurge can make interesting NPCs or if your GM makes some house rules it can work.
Practised Spellcaster does not fix the problem of...
That's why I said 'almost'. I can live with being behind in pure power level of spells as long as what I /do/ cast is at full character level capability. The class is about utility, but if I can't even be up to par in my utilitarian role, what's the point?
The 10th level ability (whatever the hell that it's called) is a good fix for the action-screwed problem, but any ability that you don't get until level 16 can hardly be called a fix. How I currently address the issue (at my lower level of 3/3/3) is simply preparing a lot of healing in my spare arcane slots and topping people off after an encounter.
You have arguably passed the worst of the Theurge levels already.
Yes. On a lighter note, the progression from 3/2 through 3/3/1 was an absolute nightmare. =P
Sigh.
All of this could (almost) be fixed with the simple conversion of Practiced Spellcaster. Mystic Theurge should have it baked into the class.
You don't need to "convert" it, just use it, Pathfinder is supposed to be backward compatible. Many may not agree with that in detail, but unless your GM is running a strictly PRPG game, you should be able to use the feat. (And even if he is, surely you could convince him of the need.)
Other than that though, I don't see what you are upset about. The class is better than it was, and you were already playing it. You do have to give something up to have two full casting lists, particularly when one has delayed blast fireball and the other has heal.
but unless your GM is running a strictly PRPG game, you should be able to use the feat. (And even if he is, surely you could convince him of the need.)
As I said, this is a strictly PF game. This was something our group agreed upon as a whole. When you make one exception, you might as well make two or twenty.
Other than that though, I don't see what you are upset about. The class is better than it was
The class may be; the build isn't. Not even close.
You do have to give something up to have two full casting lists,
Three levels of spellcasting progression, domain powers, d6 HD instead of a cleric's d8, universalist / specialist powers, channel energy progression, bonus feats, a second good save, familiar/bonded object progression, item creation viability, overcoming spell resistance, spell scaling progression.
particularly when one has delayed blast fireball
Yeah, DBF, that's what really breaks the wizard.
edit: But, to most of you, thanks for confirming my suspicions. I won't be back to the thread, so good luck in your own campaigns.
Practised Spellcaster does not fix the problem of...That's why I said 'almost'. I can live with being behind in pure power level of spells as long as what I /do/ cast is at full character level capability. The class is about utility, but if I can't even be up to par in my utilitarian role, what's the point?
The 10th level ability (whatever the hell that it's called) is a good fix for the action-screwed problem, but any ability that you don't get until level 16 can hardly be called a fix. How I currently address the issue (at my lower level of 3/3/3) is simply preparing a lot of healing in my spare arcane slots and topping people off after an encounter.
You have arguably passed the worst of the Theurge levels already.Yes. On a lighter note, the progression from 3/2 through 3/3/1 was an absolute nightmare. =P
PrC's in general took a beating in Pathfinder. The designers seemed to place a high priority on making the base classes playable to level 20, and bumping up the main classes, rewarding you when you don't multiclass, while leaving PrC's "as is" or in some cases, worse (see "Assassin")
Losing Practiced Spellcaster hurts alot. This reduces the effect of the spells that you can cast, reduces your ability to bypass SR, just plain painful. Any way your DM would allow you access to that feat from 3.5?
As for some suggestions:
1) Elf is your best choice for race (maybe you are already set for race? If not, the +2 to defeat SR is a nice way to buffer that spellcaster level loss)
2) Take the item for the Arcane Bond. The Familiar will stop improving with level at level 3, while the Bond will continue to improve with the increase in the level of your available spells.
3) Specialize based on spell selection, not on specialization powers. DEFINITELY specialize! I would suggest Conjuration.
4) Pick Domains based on spell selection, not on powers. You might be stuck on domain selection (not sure how Mystra's domains switch to Pathfinder. Magic/Good - what else?). Ultimately, it would be really nice to get Plant/Air (To get access to the best Druid spells. Why be happy with just wizard/cleric spells???)
5) Pick your spells carefully. Some spells can be very useful regardless of level. At your level I would make sure that Magic Circle vs Evil, Haste, Fly, Fog Cloud and Silent Image are always prepared.
6) Feats: Spell Penetration, Greater Spell penetration to start.
but unless your GM is running a strictly PRPG game, you should be able to use the feat. (And even if he is, surely you could convince him of the need.)As I said, this is a strictly PF game. This was something our group agreed upon as a whole. When you make one exception, you might as well make two or twenty.
Other than that though, I don't see what you are upset about. The class is better than it wasNo, it isn't. Not even close. The class may be; the build isn't.
You do have to give something up to have two full casting lists,Three levels of spellcasting progression, domain powers, d6 HD instead of a cleric's d8, universalist / specialist powers, channel energy progression, bonus feats, a second good save, familiar/bonded object progression, item creation viability, overcoming spell resistance, spell scaling progression.
particularly when one has delayed blast fireballYeah, DBF, that's what really breaks the wizard.
edit: But, to most of you, thanks for confirming my suspicions. I won't be back to the thread, so good luck in your own campaigns.
Sorry I missed the strictly Pathfinder bit. I actually want to try that, but my group doesn't want to. Even so, I would still "build my own" for whatever I thought was missing/needed (which would often be 3.5 stuff). Resetting to zero can be liberating, but the game is still alive.
You make a lot of good points about what it costs. But I wouldn't say, "it costs too much, I should get full casting with one or both", I would be inclined to say, "I guess it isn't practical to combine two full casting classes in a PC".
And, finally, I never said (or meant) that DBF "breaks" the wizard. But it is one of the most (potentially) powerful offensive spells. I was simply trying to illustrate that, maybe you can't have it both ways.
Recently, we've picked back up an old campaign that was shelved. In it, the campaign centric character was my mystic theurge. I was all for converting to pathfinder and I absolutely love the system, but people that know the game (3.5/Pathfinder) know that mystic theurge is not where it should be.
...
edit: I should have mentioned that anything outside of the core books isn't an option. We're using the base rules, so the +2 CL trait that I've seen mentioned isn't an option.
"mystic theurge is not where it should be." That depends on what your expectations of "should be" are. You will not match a single-classed cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard in their specialty (at least, not without extra preparation), but you will be more versatile in the situations you can influence, due to being able to draw on two complete spell lists.
Some things to keep in mind:
1) Your biggest weakness is going to be CL, since there are no feats like 3.5's Practiced Spellcaster in Pathfinder RPG core rules and you aren't using traits. Concentrate on disabling spells and spells that don't rely heavily on CL for their effects (such as most direct damage spells; the mystic theurge makes a poor blaster).
2) Supplement your spellcasting with magic items. Wizards get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat (and can enchant their Arcane Bond item as if they had the applicable feats, as long as they meet the CL requirement; amulet, staff, or weapon are usually the best choices, as they can be improved earlier); Craft Wondrous Item can be taken early (especially if you don't multiclass until after 3rd character level) and used to create numerous "X times per day" or single use items; Craft Wand can help, but by the time you can take it (9th character level without the Magical Knack trait) it's not as useful as it could be (although being able to create a wand of cure light wounds in one day for only 375 gp isn't bad; wands of acid arrow, magic missile (CL 3 or 5), or scorching ray can also provide modest ranged attack capability relatively cheaply). Craft Rod, Craft Staff, and Forge Ring aren't available until 13th, 15th, and 11th character level feat choices, respectively, without Magical Knack.
3) 5th-7th character level you probably should mostly play the character like a bard and concentrate on party support (buff and heal spells); you still have some pretty good debuff/disabling choices on the Sorcerer/Wizard list (grease, ray of enfeeblement, glitterdust, web) and spectral hand is tremendously useful, since it can be used to deliver "any touch range spell of 4th level or lower," including cure and inflict spells, many buff spells, etc.
4) Arcane Armor Training (can be taken at 5th character level if starting as a wizard or 7th character level if starting as a cleric), a +2 mithral chain shirt (5,100 gp), and the heroism spell (available at 8th character level) can allow the mystic theurge to act as a light combatant; Arcane Armor Mastery (available at 11th character level) allows use of a mithral breastplate and an animated mithral heavy shield without chance of arcane spell failure. If given a little time to prepare before combat (cast 1 min/level duration spells, possibly from a scroll or activating a wondrous item), the mystic theurge can fight about as well as an equal level cleric from 8th-14th character level; the cleric has the edge when preparation is not possible. Alternately, you can just try to avoid melee most of the time.
"mystic theurge is not where it should be." That depends on what your expectations of "should be" are. You will not match a single-classed cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard in their specialty
+(Infinity)
If you want to be a full spellcaster, play a full spellcaster. If you want everything, expect to get less of everything.
Beyond that, it is true that the multiclassing rules, especially for spellcasters, could use a serious do-over. If there would be a decent compromise between power and versatility, we could save space by throwing out the mystic theurge, eldritch knight, arcane trickster, and all other "prestige" classes that are there just to fix this.
Some of their class abilities might be fun, but they could be feats instead.
4) Arcane Armor Training (can be taken at 5th character level if starting as a wizard or 7th character level if starting as a cleric), a +2 mithral chain shirt (5,100 gp), and the heroism spell (available at 8th character level) can allow the mystic theurge to act as a light combatant;
Err...no, don't do it. The terrible BaB kills this idea (3 levels of wizard = +1 BaB, 3 levels of cleric = +2 BaB, 3 levels of MT = +1 BaB), not to mention the multiple attribute dependency and the lack of bonus feats on this career path. Attempting to 'Eldritch Knight' a MT is going to wind up even MORE sub-optimal.
The MT's big (only?) advantage is its host of spells...spellcasting endurance. Casting spells will always be the better option. You were spot on with #3; party support. Even low-end Summon Monster spells can create flankers, soak attacks and generally create party advantage.
4) Arcane Armor Training (can be taken at 5th character level if starting as a wizard or 7th character level if starting as a cleric), a +2 mithral chain shirt (5,100 gp), and the heroism spell (available at 8th character level) can allow the mystic theurge to act as a light combatant;Err...no, don't do it. The terrible BaB kills this idea (3 levels of wizard = +1 BaB, 3 levels of cleric = +2 BaB, 3 levels of MT = +1 BaB), not to mention the multiple attribute dependency and the lack of bonus feats on this career path. Attempting to 'Eldritch Knight' a MT is going to wind up even MORE sub-optimal.
BAB +2 (cleric 3) +1 (wizard 3) +1 (mystic theurge 2) = +4 +2 (heroism) = +6
BAB +6 (cleric 8) = +6BAB for cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 3 = +4 +2 heroism = +6
BAB for cleric 9 = +6
BAB for cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 4 = +5 +2 heroism = +7
BAB for cleric 10 = +7
BAB for cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 5 = +5 +2 heroism = +7
BAB for cleric 11 = +8
BAB for cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 6 = +6 +2 heroism = +8
BAB for cleric 12 = +9
BAB for cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 7 = +6 +2 heroism = +8
BAB for cleric 13 = +9
BAB for cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 8 = +7 +2 heroism = +9
BAB for cleric 14 = +10
Not a huge difference, unless the cleric has the Charm domain (and access to heroism also). The MAD is not much worse than a straight cleric optimized for Channel Energy, since a wizardly mystic theurge doesn't need a high Cha (as a MT's Channel Energy is never going to amount to much anyway). And what sort of bonus feats is the straight cleric getting?
Recently, we've picked back up an old campaign that was shelved. In it, the campaign centric character was my mystic theurge. I was all for converting to pathfinder and I absolutely love the system, but people that know the game (3.5/Pathfinder) know that mystic theurge is not where it should be.
Is there any word on a mystic theurge revision in the upcoming DM book? If not, has anyone made any headway into building a competitive theurge? I'm not here to debate whether or not the theurge is good, so if you disagree with me, that's fine, but I'm not here to argue that point. I was given the option by the DM (because of the state of the PrC) to convert the character as 100% cleric, but unfortunately, being a mystic theurge was centric to the character, and I couldn't in good conscience do it. (Cleric of Mystra, story had a lot to do with his dual casting abilities, etc.)
So basically, if you're in agreement with me about the state of this PrC, let me know what luck you've had in playing it up to par without Practiced Spellcasting and Divine Metamagic + Nightsticks. At the moment, I've geared him completely up for survivability (stacking AC, saves, and HP) as I couldn't find any better way to use his feats. Currently, the character is 3/3/3.
edit: I should have mentioned that anything outside of the core books isn't an option. We're using the base rules, so the +2 CL trait that I've seen mentioned isn't an option.
Ask your GM if you can change the Pre-reqs. 5 cleric/1 wiz/1 MT would be good or 5 wiz/1cler/1MT
Ask your GM if you can change the Pre-reqs. 5 cleric/1 wiz/1 MT would be good or 5 wiz/1cler/1MT
Now THIS is a great idea! Yes, why not? At least it makes the MT a more viable option for low level play. I think I'll steal this.
The way we redid the MT in a game a play is that MT adds channel energy to the cleric channel so that they stack.
Not a huge difference, unless the cleric has the Charm domain (and access to heroism also).
Adding Heroism to the MT but no buffs to the Cleric is hardly a fair comparison.
Take into account that the Divine Favor (due to higher spellcasting level) will give the Cleric a larger bonus from that for levels 8-11.
Also note that the Cleric has access to higher level spells (and more of them) bringing Righteous Might and Divine Power into play earlier.
Don't forget AC of course, and the higher caster levels for Shield of Faith, Greater Magic Vestment, etc.
Then of course there are the domain powers. For example, use your example of the Charm domain. The Cleric doesn't just also have heroism - he has it for a significantly longer duration.
Also - your comparison doesn't take extra attacks into account. The Cleric gets more at levels 8, 9, 10 and 11.
The MAD is not much worse than a straight cleric optimized for Channel Energy, since a wizardly mystic theurge doesn't need a high Cha (as a MT's Channel Energy is never going to amount to much anyway).
Clerics who go into melee don't have high CHA scores. It's Wis+Str vs. Wis+Int+Str.
Don't get me wrong, I think other than BAB, HP, AC, CMD, MAD and Weapon damage, MT's are a great choice for melee backup. Maybe just a shade behind a pure wizard.
IF you are going to do a melee back up character using MT use the Bard instead of the wizard. You slightly cut down on the MAD, and your BAB, HP, and ability to wear armor will help significantly. The buffs are good, and if you are willing to go Bard 7/ Cleric 3/ MT 10 you'll get all the bard spells, and can move action start your bardic music for +2 while still getting off another buff spell. Your BAB will be +13 which (while not good) beats the wizard/clerics easily.
Mithral breastplate for armor with a buckler for a shield means you have a chance at surviving a hit, however a longspear would be a better long term survival (and damage) choice.
Using a 20 point buy I would suggest the following for such a build:
Str 14, Dex 12 Con 14, Int 7, Wis 16, Cha 14
You'll put your level boosts into wisdom (1 point) charisma (2 points) and strength (2 points) and use a long spear.
Please note this still isn't optimium... but it has considerably less suck at melee than the cleric(druid)/wizard(sorcerer)/MT.
Not a huge difference, unless the cleric has the Charm domain (and access to heroism also). The MAD is not much worse than a straight cleric optimized for Channel Energy, since a wizardly mystic theurge doesn't need a high Cha (as a MT's Channel Energy is never going to amount to much anyway). And what sort of bonus feats is the straight cleric getting?
Wizard5/Fighter1, the 'normal' route to an Eldritch Knight type, gets 2 bonus feats, and that's still generally insufficient to make the concept work as desired. Cleric3/Wizard3/MT3 (as posted by the OP), gets NOTHING but the regular feat allotment (5 regular). Contrast with a Wiz5/Ftr1/EK3, who has 8 feats, and a BaB of +6...like a straight 9th level cleric - without using spells. So the MT has to use precious 3rd level spells just to come up to the EK's level, which most think is disappointing (especially en route to getting the PrC). If a melee MT is WORSE than this, that's a pretty clear indication that it's a bad idea.
Leave the swordplay to the experts and stick with the strengths of the MT - versatility and spellcasting endurance. Poking someone with a stick for minor damage (simple weapon + shield, few damage boosting feats available, fewer attacks) is going to be your worst option. I don't think that taking AAT/AAM is necessarily bad, as being able to wear armor is nice, but just because you're wearing armor doesn't mean you should be swinging a sword...er...mace.
The way we redid the MT in a game a play is that MT adds channel energy to the cleric channel so that they stack.
I did not know they did not stack. I will be using this houserule also.
The campaign guide has a cleric option that drops the domains in exchange for full BAB. I have not had a chance to try it though.
To the OP if you arent dead set on MT but would like a mix of arcane and divine, you might want to look at The genius guide to the Magus. If you are allowed 3rd party material it is a great way to mix either a little bit of divine into arcane or vice versa, but be a single class and no lose casting progression. You are not anywhere near as versatile as a Mystic Theruge but it is kind of a middle ground.
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While it may not count for much in a "good" setting, I've found that MT makes an amazing necromancer. You not only have the endurance and versatility others described, but you get nearly double the amount of undead that pure classes can control because at wiz 3/cle 3/MT 10, you'd effectively have 13x4=52 HD of undead to control as a wizard and 13x4=52 HD of undead to control as a cleric. A pure cleric or wizard at 16 would only be able to control 64 HD of undead. 104-64=40 more HD than a pure. That's a lot.
If your GM allows this and is generous. I would definitely ask before trying something like this. I certainly wouldn't allow double counting the Mystic Theurge levels for this purpose.
There's two sources of controlling undead.
Animate Undead: This is both a divine and arcane spell. The spell gives you control over an amount of HD based on your caster level.
Now I guess if you specifically cast it from an arcane slot and then a divine slot, you can use your alternate caster levels.
While it might have been an unintended side effect of the class, the MT is granting two caster levels each level (+1 arcane, +1 divine), so it's hard to deny this by pure reading of the rules.
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Command Undead: This feat grants control over undead but only based on your cleric level. So unfortunately, you'll get a whopping 3 HD of undead (unless you level cleric more after your MT levels are done).
This is a little different from 3.5e, where it just said "cannot exceed his level", not specifying "Cleric" levels.
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If your GM allows this and is generous. I would definitely ask before trying something like this. I certainly wouldn't allow double counting the Mystic Theurge levels for this purpose.I don't see why not? In my above example your cleric caster level is 13 and your wizard caster level is 13. That to me sounds like you would get 13x4 for both your cleric and wizard caster levels.
The spell Animate Dead specifically states that you cannot control more than "4 HD of undead per caster level." It does not base this on your HD. It bases it on your caster level. I have an effective cleric caster level of 13 and an effective wizard caster level of 13.
If you want to run your game that way feel free. All I'm saying is that I don't and I am not the only GM who would say no to this. Ok, I'm not entirely sure about that, maybe I am the only GM who would say no to it :). All I'm saying is ASK before assuming and possibly winding up in a debate with your GM or being disappointed. This is a whole other conversation and I don't want to threadjack by arguing the issue.
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While it might have been an unintended side effect of the class, the MT is granting two caster levels each level (+1 arcane, +1 divine), so it's hard to deny this by pure reading of the rules.
I would suggest that the designers don't intend you to use a pure reading of the rules. In fact just recently one of the designers said that focusing too much on RAW was a huge mistake. I'll dig up the quote tomorrow when I'm on my other computer.
Ultimately the question to ask is why is there a hard limit on how many HD should be controlled and should there be a way to bypass that limit.
Would it give more undead than the 3.5 dread necromancer? <--Just a question
I will also say that a reason for not allowing it is because of all the book keeping, and how so many undead can bog a battle down. It would probably be like someone with leadership trying to bring all their followers with them.
Would it give more undead than the 3.5 dread necromancer? <--Just a question
I will also say that a reason for not allowing it is because of all the book keeping, and how so many undead can bog a battle down. It would probably be like someone with leadership trying to bring all their followers with them.
I statted a high level dread necromancer... I think I hit around 240 HD of undead or something ridiculous like that.
How many zombie dragons can one really use? On top of that, how does one exactly get those corpses? A single HD 20 creature will be hard enough to find, let alone kill while leaving the corpse intact (disintigration, etc).
On the bookkeeping side... my friend and I were talking about how he wanted to make a Cleric that had the leadership feat... and his cohort pick up the leadership feat, and it's cohort grab the leadership feat, etc, down the line.
With enough leaders and followers, he'd be able to call this whole gang his religious following. By 20th level, he'd likely be the most powerful of his church anyways, so it'd be a likely situation.
Something like 6 major players (cohorts) and over 500 followers likely. Not too shabby for a cult... heh.
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Ultimately, back on topic, I think the practiced spellcaster feat would be the greatest help.
I'm not sure why your magical item creation suffers.. since caster level doesn't really matter much and you've got a greater selection of spells.
Plus, ignoring a restriction (other than a spell for a spell completion item, or the creation feat themselves), is simply a +5 to your DC on the Spellcraft check.
The BAB and such doesn't really matter, since you are combining spellcasting with spellcasting... of course it's not going to match the Eldritch Knight... that's combining FIGHTING with spellcasting.
As a person who's so focused on varied forms of spellcasting, you should probably take advantage of your strengths: using up as much spells as you can.
Buffs and Summons means you don't need to focus so badly on the spellcasting stat, reducing MAD. Get a 13-14 Wis and a +6 Wis item (which you can make, of course), and you are set for most uses of Cleric spells if you focus on buffing.
Play the swiss army knife, not the broadsword or poisoned dagger.
What about house-ruling the requirements?
Mystic Theurge
Requirements: Ability to cast divine spells up to a combined minimum spell level total of 4. 3/1, 2/2 or 1/3
This would allow the caster level combinations of
5/1, 3/3 or 1/5
You could then make a Wizard 5 Cleric 1 or a Wizard 1 Cleric 5 or similar combinations.
The wording obviously needs to be improved.
Treatmonk and Helic, what part of "light combatant" did not understand? A buffed cleric is, by most considerations, a heavy combatant. Comparing a light combatant against a heavy combatant will of course favor the heavy combatant. An unbuffed cleric is considered a light combatant, which is why I was comparing against that.
By 8th character level, for the cost of one feat (Arcane Armor Training) and learning one spell (heroism; which most clerics don't get), the mystic theurge can at least do more than "hide in the back" with the "typical" sorcerer or wizard. It's still mostly a party support character, but the versatility is increasing.
This is not to say that the +2 mithral chain shirt wearing cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 2 can't act as a heavy combatant, but it takes much more preparation than it takes for the straight cleric. That's what I was talking about with the 1 min/level spells cast before kicking in the door: blur, bull's strength, cat's grace, enlarge person, and shield on top of the already existing long-term false life, heroism, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, and resist energy, with haste cast on the first combat round (benefits the entire party) before attacking in the second. It may not be the "optimal" choice, but it can make the mystic theurge an effective heavy combatant.
Treatmonk and Helic, what part of "light combatant" did not understand? A buffed cleric is, by most considerations, a heavy combatant. Comparing a light combatant against a heavy combatant will of course favor the heavy combatant. An unbuffed cleric is considered a light combatant, which is why I was comparing against that.
By 8th character level, for the cost of one feat (Arcane Armor Training) and learning one spell (heroism; which most clerics don't get), the mystic theurge can at least do more than "hide in the back" with the "typical" sorcerer or wizard. It's still mostly a party support character, but the versatility is increasing.
This is not to say that the +2 mithral chain shirt wearing cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 2 can't act as a heavy combatant, but it takes much more preparation than it takes for the straight cleric. That's what I was talking about with the 1 min/level spells cast before kicking in the door: blur, bull's strength, cat's grace, enlarge person, and shield on top of the already existing long-term false life, heroism, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, and resist energy, with haste cast on the first combat round (benefits the entire party) before attacking in the second. It may not be the "optimal" choice, but it can make the mystic theurge an effective heavy combatant.
I think the disconnect is that the cleric has most of the buff spells (and more powerful ones) as your MT build; so why isn't the cleric in your comparison buffed?
I didn't want to clutter up this thread, since the OP is in a game that's restricted to the PF RPG Core Rulebook, but I created a thread to discuss how to make a mystic theurge "viable" (especially over the 5th-7th level range). Have at it.
I think the disconnect is that the cleric has most of the buff spells (and more powerful ones) as your MT build; so why isn't the cleric in your comparison buffed?Treatmonk and Helic, what part of "light combatant" did not understand? A buffed cleric is, by most considerations, a heavy combatant. Comparing a light combatant against a heavy combatant will of course favor the heavy combatant. An unbuffed cleric is considered a light combatant, which is why I was comparing against that.
By 8th character level, for the cost of one feat (Arcane Armor Training) and learning one spell (heroism; which most clerics don't get), the mystic theurge can at least do more than "hide in the back" with the "typical" sorcerer or wizard. It's still mostly a party support character, but the versatility is increasing.
This is not to say that the +2 mithral chain shirt wearing cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 2 can't act as a heavy combatant, but it takes much more preparation than it takes for the straight cleric. That's what I was talking about with the 1 min/level spells cast before kicking in the door: blur, bull's strength, cat's grace, enlarge person, and shield on top of the already existing long-term false life, heroism, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, and resist energy, with haste cast on the first combat round (benefits the entire party) before attacking in the second. It may not be the "optimal" choice, but it can make the mystic theurge an effective heavy combatant.
The mystic theurge gains most of the same buff spells from it's cleric levels.
I'm assuming both characters have magic circle and resist energy up. In addition, the mystic theurge has false life and heroism. The mystic theurge is wearing a +2 mithral chain shirt (and possibly a ring of force shield) and has a +2 weapon (probably his Arcane Bond item), while the cleric 8 has a breastplate and buckler with magic vestment (+2) cast on them and a weapon with greater magic weapon (+2) cast on it. The cleric has a better AC (due to heavier armor), but there's not much difference otherwise. I am not assuming in combat buffs.
Treatmonk and Helic, what part of "light combatant" did not understand? A buffed cleric is, by most considerations, a heavy combatant. Comparing a light combatant against a heavy combatant will of course favor the heavy combatant. An unbuffed cleric is considered a light combatant, which is why I was comparing against that.
But he's not an unbuffed cleric equivalent. He has lower actual BaB (thus, fewer attacks), far less hit points, much lower AC (b/c the cleric can wear the best medium armor and shield without a problem, CMB/CMD, and he still has a bad selection of weaponry, unless he wins the cleric weapon lottery.
So if an unbuffed cleric is a light combatant, the buffed MT is worse than this - and that's why you shouldn't do it!
By 8th character level, for the cost of one feat (Arcane Armor Training) and learning one spell (heroism; which most clerics don't get), the mystic theurge can at least do more than "hide in the back" with the "typical" sorcerer or wizard. It's still mostly a party support character, but the versatility is increasing.
One feat? You'll want Power Attack and probably Arcane Strike as well, unless you want to be throwing 1d8+3 (ish) a round. That's three of the five feats the MT will have at 9th character level. When he should be grabbing Improved Initiative, Combat Casting, and Metamagic Feats to go with the tons of spell slots he'll have.
Treatmonk and Helic, what part of "light combatant" did not understand?
What part of "light combatant" did I not understand? The part where you said the MT was going into melee. I guess that would be the second half of those two words if by "combatant" you mean "(melee) combatant"
Saying a buffed up MT is almost as good at melee as a non-buffed Cleric really doesn't say anything.
I guess what I would like to know, is if you think the MT is a "light (melee) combatant", then exactly what PC classes would you consider non- combatants? Seems to me MT is just about your worst choice in the game for going into melee. I can make a wizard in my sleep that can out-melee the MT, and I think that's a terrible option for wizards.
So I guess that's the part of "light combatant" I don't understand. I hope that helps.
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Back on the main topic I was looking over the witch and it might be a viable alternate to the Mystic Theurge for being a combined arcane/ divine caster. It is certainly divine focused but you get level appropriate spells at all the right levels, you get healing spells, buffs, many many of the good arcane spells. It's missing all of the cleric combat/ undead parts but the Mystic Theurge sucks at the stuff in any case.
If you GM wants pure Paizo maybe he will let in a Beta APG class.
Back on the main topic I was looking over the witch and it might be a viable alternate to the Mystic Theurge for being a combined arcane/ divine caster. It is certainly divine focused but you get level appropriate spells at all the right levels, you get healing spells, buffs, many many of the good arcane spells. It's missing all of the cleric combat/ undead parts but the Mystic Theurge sucks at the stuff in any case.
If you GM wants pure Paizo maybe he will let in a Beta APG class.
I like the witch, but also note it is missing many of the best buffs, illusions, walls.
It's a great debuffer though.
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Back on the main topic I was looking over the witch and it might be a viable alternate to the Mystic Theurge for being a combined arcane/ divine caster. It is certainly divine focused but you get level appropriate spells at all the right levels, you get healing spells, buffs, many many of the good arcane spells. It's missing all of the cleric combat/ undead parts but the Mystic Theurge sucks at the stuff in any case.
If you GM wants pure Paizo maybe he will let in a Beta APG class.
I like the witch, but also note it is missing many of the best buffs, illusions, walls.
It's a great debuffer though.
It's definitely not a combined cleric/ wizard, but ultimately when you try to walk between two classes there are going to be compromises. It just seems to me that the compromises you take going the witch route are far more palatable than the Mystic Theurge. Yay, level appropriate abilities and spells!
The Witch has Heal, Scry, Black Testicles and Teleport. That's enough to count as a "viable combo caster class" for me.
heh, he said testicles! ;p