Feeling inadequate as a Summon Monster specialist... :-(

[Auke T]

So in Pathfinder Society I've got this 6th level conjurer, quite an optimized build, but after seeing a 1st level playtest summoner in action, he is feeling a bit inadequate (in summoning that is). He has to spend a full round casting, thereby making himself a prime target for enemy attacks, and if he succeeds he has a summoned creature for only a few rounds (even with summoners charm). In a home campaign I'd give him the 'rapid spell' feat, but as that isn't in a PSOP legal source that's not a possibility.

In his whole 15 adventure career he has used a summoning spell twice. Once as a last resort when the rest of the party was busy beeing paralized (and it arrived too late), and once just to redirect enemy missle fire from his valued (but at that time quite hurt) fellow pathfinders to himself (And yes, it was only a Summon Moster I on tier 4-5, but if you accompany your summoning with the words 'Oh Asmodeus, send me your powerfull minions to slay these puny enemies' it's easy to get attention)

I wouldn't mind spending feats, or reducing power of the summoned creature, to gain reduced casting time or extended duration.

I know the playtesting is closed, but I'd love to see a way that would allow the other summoning classes (wizard, cleric and druid) the same possibilities on their summons.

Something like:

Rapid Summoner [meta magic feat]
x times a day the character can use a standard action instead of a full round action to cast a Conjuration (Summoning) spell or spell like ability.

Rapid Summoning [meta magic feat]
Standard action instead of Full round action to cast a Conjuration (Summoning) spell or spell like ability. An rapid summoning spell
uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s
actual level.

Or an extra rule:

Instead of summoning a monster from the Summon Monster N list, you can summon a monster from the N-1 list with a duration in minutes/level or a monster from the N-2 list for 10minutes(or hours?)/level

That way you can summon a monkey to get those books from those high shelves (or trigger some traps), summon a dog to track by scent or a dolphin to swim with.

Maybe I'm just jealous that a 11th level summoner will be able to summon a Succubus or an Erinyes for 11 minutes, while my conjurer will only have a few rounds... ;-)

[Snorter]

Yes, eleven minutes with a succubus does open up more possibilities....

[Todd Morgan]

While it's true that us Conjurer's can't keep our monsters around for as long, we are much more potent in so many other ways. We have a wider range of spells we can use, we get higher level spells faster and we are much much better at battlefield control.

[LazarX]

Summoners have one trick they do very well. The key thing to remember is that while Summoning is not an impotent trick for a Conjurer, you've got a wider bag to draw from. Above all remember that you are a WIZARD, the ultimate master of magic.

[William Ronald]

Do not forget battlefield control spells, many of which are in the Conjuration school. Also, be sure to take the Augment Summoning Feat to toughen up the monsters that you summon. (You also have a greater variety of creatures to summon. A lantern archon, for example, can provide Aid spells to help your party -- which is particularly useful if your primary healer is at negative hit points.)

[Auke T]

Yeah, I know a conjurer is effective. My last six combats all went this way:

round 1: Haste on my partymembers and their pets (excluding myself most of the time)
round 2: Glitterdust
round 3: Grease
round 4+ : Delay while the rest of the party slaughters the enemy

And yes, that's a single D20 roll per combat... Only for initiative ;-)

I think the (or at least my) problem with the summoner is that is has to compete with all the 3.5 splatbooks. But as those are not available to Organized Play summoners get an unfair advantage. In Living Greyhawk (R.I.P.) I had a conjurer, which was a similair build as my current conjurer (but a totally different character) that had Rapid Spell and Metamagic Schoolfocus and with those feats a character could get near the summoning power of the Summoner (casting time, still not duration) three times a day.

And although the duration of rounds/level is important for a summoner at low levels, minutes/level is 'unfair' at high level as in certain cases this could last more than one encounter. Rounds/level with a minimum of 1 minute might be a nice fix.

With summoners charm I got a few extra rounds, so under the right circumstances I'd be able to cast a summoning as a prepratory spell, but without knowing what kind of enemy we'll be facing it's a bit of a shot in the dark what to summon!

In the beta conjurers had improved armor class, which seemed logical as the extra protection was needed to get through a round of casting relatively unharmed and although 'summoners charm' seems like a nice ability it really does not work like a charm. If I can cast a Summon monster spell without beeing interupted it clearly isn't nessecary and just a win more situation. That's one feat (augment summoning) and one ability (summoner's charm) down the drain.

A rules question: If a summon monster spell is cast as a full round action the summoned creature appears at the start of your next action and from that moment it has a full round. But if you cast a summon monster as a standard action what happens?

A. The summoned monster appears immediately, but has no actions.
B. The summoned monster appears immediately and gets a single action.
C. The summoned monster appears immediately and has a full round.
D. The summoned monster appears at the start of your next round.

Yeah, the summoner is a bit of a one trick pony, but it's quite a nice pony, it used to be mine and I want it back! ;-)

(Everything has probably been said before, but is't that what internet is for: holding the same discussion over and over again ;-) )

[Wintergreen]

There is an Organised Play legal feat that allows you to cast a summoning spell as a standard action - Acadamae Graduate. It is in the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide. You can cast a summoning spell as a standard action but run the risk of becoming fatigued by doing it.

That doesn't help with the duration but is a nice trick when you want to summon something quickly.

[Auke T]

Wintergreen wrote:

There is an Organised Play legal feat that allows you to cast a summoning spell as a standard action - Acadamae Graduate. It is in the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide. You can cast a summoning spell as a standard action but run the risk of becoming fatigued by doing it.

That doesn't help with the duration but is a nice trick when you want to summon something quickly.

Thanks for the tip! I owe you a beer! (but you'll have to wait for GenCon UK to get it though)

[Wintergreen]

Auke T wrote:

Wintergreen wrote:

There is an Organised Play legal feat that allows you to cast a summoning spell as a standard action - Acadamae Graduate. It is in the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide. You can cast a summoning spell as a standard action but run the risk of becoming fatigued by doing it.

That doesn't help with the duration but is a nice trick when you want to summon something quickly.

Thanks for the tip! I owe you a beer! (but you'll have to wait for GenCon UK to get it though)

Cheers!