Strictly RAW, you can't end your movement in an occupied square.
However, in this extreme circumstance i'd go by the rules for squeezing (Core p.193-194):
-4 to attacks
-4 to AC
counts as difficult terrain
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Strictly RAW, you can't end your movement in an occupied square.
However, in this extreme circumstance i'd go by the rules for squeezing (Core p.193-194):
-4 to attacks
-4 to AC
counts as difficult terrain
Would you apply that to the treant as well as the players?
Incidentally, there are plenty of other ways this can happen; how about: falling into a 10' square pit with a tiger in it.
I mean, presumably the RAW doesn't say you end up hovering above it :-)
Richard
yep. treant too. anyone that's in an occupied square and not grappling.
yeh, i see how it could be common, but in my experience it generally isn't. Just ad hoc it with squeezing rules, unless it's quite frequent at your table.
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yep. treant too. anyone that's in an occupied square and not grappling.
yeh, i see how it could be common, but in my experience it generally isn't. Just ad hoc it with squeezing rules, unless it's quite frequent at your table.
What's the point of having everyone at -4 TH and AC? Might as well leave the chances as they are (or am I missing something).
And in response to Bruno, what would you do if the person who fell in was large too? Make the room underneath 20'x20' ;-)
Richard
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yep. treant too. anyone that's in an occupied square and not grappling.
yeh, i see how it could be common, but in my experience it generally isn't. Just ad hoc it with squeezing rules, unless it's quite frequent at your table.
What's the point of having everyone at -4 TH and AC? Might as well leave the chances as they are (or am I missing something).
And in response to Bruno, what would you do if the person who fell in was large too? Make the room underneath 20'x20' ;-)
Richard
Well... mathematically speaking you could even the odds and ignore the penalties for all. But I'd go differently to master this encounter... I'd give the treant a bigger penalty. That's for the fact that it's BIG and it surely not as agile as the players (dimensionally thinking)... Next time you could always make the garden bigger ^^
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+1 for using the squeezing rules.
And it is important to impose the penalties as creatures from outside the area wouldn't have those penalties. Think of archers or spellcasters who are staying away from the main group.
Incidentally, PCs at that level can probably fly pretty easily, so expect to make something up with regards to how thick the tree canopy is, too. ;)
Strictly RAW, you can't end your movement in an occupied square.
However, in this extreme circumstance i'd go by the rules for squeezing (Core p.193-194):
-4 to attacks
-4 to AC
counts as difficult terrainWould you apply that to the treant as well as the players?
Incidentally, there are plenty of other ways this can happen; how about: falling into a 10' square pit with a tiger in it.
I mean, presumably the RAW doesn't say you end up hovering above it :-)
Richard
For those of us who like to relate our gaming experience to some kind of resemblance to the real world, it's important to remember that the gaming concept of "space" (meaning the space a creature occupies) does not mean that the creature itself is 5x5 or 10x10 or 15x15, or whatever.
No tiger is 10' long and 10' wide. Nor is a treant 15'x15' (though maybe it's branches sort-of fill that much space - but every tree I have ever seen is more air than branch).
So in game terms, "space" doesn't describe incredibly fat, cube-shaped monsters and people and such. Instead, it describes how much space those creatures need to effectively fight - bobbing, ducking, twisting, whirling, dodging, juking, etc.
In the case of the treant, his trunk is probably only a few feet in diameter (same as it was when the players all stood in the garden with a tree). They weren't crowded then. Now that the tree animated into a treant, its trunk doesn't sudenly turn into a 15'x15' cube. It's still only a few feet in diameter. But that treant is flailing away with its branches, creating a 15'x15' area in which some part, probably just a branch or two, occupies each of those 5'x5' cubes.
Which means the PCs are not all instantly squished against the walls. But they are trying to share space with this big old treant and it's whomping branches, so they have to squeeze into the area, suffering the squeezing rules.
So does the treant, since he's squeezing into a space filled with PCs.
And since everyone is -4 to hit, but everyone is also -4 AC, it really means nobody is penalized (or more accurately, everyone is equally penalized) so there is really no net effect of all this squeezing.
Me, I would be inclined to say that the treant isn't really squeezing, since all of its primary weapons and combat capability is above the PCs' heads, and because the treant is used to fighting in this space (unless for some reason the treant is new to this dungeon, or this room, or whatever). Given its height advantage, whomping down on the squeezing PCs from above, and its home-field advantage of doing this so many times before, I would only penalize the PCs for squeezing.
Yeah, a bit of a DM-fiat there, but the idea here is to make the encounter interesting, or else why put it into a confined space in the first place? Either use the confined space to create an interesting challenge, or don't bother with it. I prefer the interesting challenge aspect, myself.
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And since everyone is -4 to hit, but everyone is also -4 AC, it really means nobody is penalized (or more accurately, everyone is equally penalized) so there is really no net effect of all this squeezing.
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As long as all opponents suffer the same penalties yes, it probably means you can ignore the penalties.
Of course if there is a halfling or a gnome in the party that might change things, you can move through the space of another creature that is three size categories different than you, so they wouldn't be hampered at all.
Though anyone making any movements, even 5' steps, should be generating attacks of opportunity. That said though, it is questionable weather a small creature would provoke an AoO from a 5ft step while inside the space of a larger creature, 5ft step does say "never provokes an Attacks of Opportunity". Though anyone else who attempt to move at all, should have hampered movement and not be able to make a 5ft step, requiring a move action to move any distance.
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.
And it is important to impose the penalties as creatures from outside the area wouldn't have those penalties. Think of archers or spellcasters who are staying away from the main group.
That's why you impose the penalties on everyone who's squeezing.
I can see where you're coming from Blake and i could see what you said being houseruled. I was just trying to stick as close to RAW as possible.
And it is important to impose the penalties as creatures from outside the area wouldn't have those penalties. Think of archers or spellcasters who are staying away from the main group.That's why you impose the penalties on everyone who's squeezing.
I can see where you're coming from Blake and i could see what you said being houseruled. I was just trying to stick as close to RAW as possible.
Yes, me too. Which is why I stuck to explaining the rules except for the last bit, which I clearly indicated was DM-fiat.
I would be inclined to favor the treant here, for the reason I suggested: why even bother creating unusual combat terrain features if they don't influence the combat? Oh, yes, once in a while for verisimilitude, but really, it's a lot of hassle for just verisimilitude that probably would be lost on players anyway - so let that unusual terrain affect the challenge of the battle with the wave of the DM's Rule-0 wand.