Can you make a potion witout the prerequisite spell?

[Ravingdork]

The brew potion feat says you must know the spell to be put into the potion.

Does that mean a sorcerer can't up the crafting DC by 5 points to make a cure X wounds potion?

[Fatespinner]

Ravingdork wrote:

The brew potion feat says you must know the spell to be put into the potion.

Does that mean a sorcerer can't up the crafting DC by 5 points to make a cure X wounds potion?

Correct. You cannot brew a potion that you do not know the spell for. Some GMs will allow others to "assist" the crafter, meaning that as long as the crafter can find someone who does know the spell (like the party's cleric for instance), then they can craft it normally.

There is also a feat in Pathfinder RPG called Master Craftsman that allows non-spellcasters to use the Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor feats as though they were spellcasters. You may wish to broaden the scope of this feat to allow the other item creation feats (such as Brew Potion) to function with it as well, making it possible for a sorcerer to brew a healing potion. :)

[Ravingdork]

Fatespinner wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

The brew potion feat says you must know the spell to be put into the potion.

Does that mean a sorcerer can't up the crafting DC by 5 points to make a cure X wounds potion?

Correct. You cannot brew a potion that you do not know the spell for. Some GMs will allow others to "assist" the crafter, meaning that as long as the crafter can find someone who does know the spell (like the party's cleric for instance), then they can craft it normally.

Can you quote a rules source please?

[Austin Morgan]

Ravingdork wrote:

Can you quote a rules source please?

Core Rulebook P.549 wrote:

In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

But the Master Craftsman feat won't let you bypass that either, so I don't know why that was suggested.

[HaraldKlak]

Austin Morgan wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Can you quote a rules source please?

Core Rulebook P.549 wrote:

In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

But the Master Craftsman feat won't let you bypass that either, so I don't know why that was suggested.

I believe it was suggested as a house-rule to make it possible to use Master Craftsman with all types of Craft Feats. As it is now it is only usable for Craft A&A and Wondrous Items. However IMO this should not be used generally, just to allow arcane casters to brew healing potions, but might make very good sense for certain builds.

[Majuba]

You know, I'm in agreement that you can't up the DC by 5 to avoid providing the spell (helpers are fine)... but... technically a potion isn't a spell-completion or spell-trigger item. It's use-activated.

This sort of thing came up during the Beta when the item creation rules were announced. I think an additional "+5" to DC was proposed for items that duplicate spells, but then that quoted text above was added, which made it seem unnecessary.

Perhaps it's located somewhere else?..

Edit: Not really any different language in the Creating a Potion section than in Creating a Magic Weapon, as far as spells go.

[Austin Morgan]

Majuba wrote:

You know, I'm in agreement that you can't up the DC by 5 to avoid providing the spell (helpers are fine)... but... technically a potion isn't a spell-completion or spell-trigger item. It's use-activated.

O.O

*rolls a Stealth check and sneaks out the back door*

[meatrace]

Ravingdork wrote:

Fatespinner wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

The brew potion feat says you must know the spell to be put into the potion.

Does that mean a sorcerer can't up the crafting DC by 5 points to make a cure X wounds potion?

Correct. You cannot brew a potion that you do not know the spell for. Some GMs will allow others to "assist" the crafter, meaning that as long as the crafter can find someone who does know the spell (like the party's cleric for instance), then they can craft it normally.

Can you quote a rules source please?

Just in case you were asking for a rules source on the assisting rule.

From the PRD:

Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item's caster level.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.

I had found that a while back, and our party was using this for a while and divvying up item creation feats so there isn't one crafting [explitive deleted], then I needed to find it again and searched for days.

[Jess Door]

while more than one character can provide prerequisites, can anyone aid the crafter on the Spellcraft check?

[ACW]

Ravingdork wrote:

Fatespinner wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

The brew potion feat says you must know the spell to be put into the potion.

Does that mean a sorcerer can't up the crafting DC by 5 points to make a cure X wounds potion?

Correct. You cannot brew a potion that you do not know the spell for. Some GMs will allow others to "assist" the crafter, meaning that as long as the crafter can find someone who does know the spell (like the party's cleric for instance), then they can craft it normally.

Can you quote a rules source please?

I can do so, just like in the previous two threads on this topic (for the benefit of any readers who may have missed them):

Yes, Brew Potion needs spell prerequsites. The reason is in the rules as written (quoted below with some *added emphasis*):

Quote:

Note that all items have *prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites* must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

"All items have prerequisites in their descriptions". These are specifically the prerequisites that can be omitted, at the cost of a higher creation DC.

If you look at the section on "Potions" in the "Magic Items" chapter, you'll find that (unlike most items) individual potions do not, in fact, have descriptions (or "CONSTRUCTION" sections, which is where the "Requirements"/prerequsites are actually shown). Thus, they have no "prerequisites" for the purposes of the originally-quoted paragraph. All they have is the "requisite item creation feat", which is quite clear that you do, in fact, need to know a spell to make a potion from it (as is the "Creating Potions" section on p. 551).

Potions have no prerequisites that can be omitted by the mechanism described in the paragraph; thus, they work as their creation feat (and other similar text) describes, which specifies that you have to know the spell.

In addition, it seems clear to many commenters (including myself) that the original intent was not to allow potions to be made by crafters who don't know the spell. I can't see why they would have wanted to allow it for potions, but not for wands and scrolls. Which isn't to say that some herbalist class (or new Alchemist ability) might not let you do so, but it's not the RAW.

[Oliver McShade]

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HAVE NO CLUE
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After reading, talking, debating the : RULE ON CREATING SCROLLS AND USING SOMEONE ELSES SPELLS ... tread.

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Until the magic rules (Item Creation Feats PF phb p113-137), (Magic item Description: Requirements PF phb p460-461), (Magic Item Creation PF phb p548-550), and (individual enter Item Creation Feats listing PF phb p550-553). Until the rules get cleaned up, and depending on how you read the rules. I would say that their is currently 5 different ways to read it.

oliver McShade wrote:

Worst part is i can see 5 different way to look at it.

..................................

A) Potions, wand, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to Staves)

B) Potions, Wand, Staves, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed.

C) Wands, Staves and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to potions)

D) All magic items can be created with help, and anyone helping can provide the spells.

E) All magic items require the person with the feat to also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (which mean the only help that another person can provide is like blacksmith or carpenter).

...................................

Depending on which rules you consider General, and which you consider Specific.