There once was a wizard named Mores,
who was fond of all kinds of doors,
so everywhere he went
his spells would be spent
on permanent images of doors;
never was there enough doors for Mores!
To Mores' doors along came Billy
whose save was so low it was silly,
He reached for a door and rasped
as the knob kept out of his grasp.
Over and over again tried poor Billy,
whose save was so low it was silly.
If someone were to create a permanent illusory door (complete with a door knob or handle) and someone else tried to grab the handle to open it, but failed their save to disbelieve for the interaction, what exactly happens? Do they simply think it locked? How does one adjudicate such a situation?
How sophisticated is the illusion?
Maybe Mores created an illusion of a room that can only be seen when the illusion of the door is "opened" by someone believing he opened it?
Fact is, it states on page 211 "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw."
So once Silly Billy sticks his hand through a wispy illusory doorknob and doesn't feel it and cannot grasp it, he will immediately have proof that the illusion is not real and now he needs no saving throw - he automagically knows it's an illusion.
How sophisticated is the illusion?
It's of the "permanent image" level of sophistication, which means there is a tactile sensation. Does he still auto-disbelieve?
I would say that he thinks it's simply a door.
The knob doesn't turn, for some reason, and he can't seem to open it. If it's a PC interacting with it, let the player decide what the PC will do next. If its an NPC, the GM will have to decide what happens next. With the interaction of all 5 senses, I don't see how you can automatically disbelieve at first. Maybe you'd have to investigate the illusion more closely than say a silent image. Upon further inspection (I'm assuming a standard wooden door), the handle doesn't seem to move in the slightest. There is a keyhole, that doesn't seem to function. The hinge pins don't seem to be removable. You chop at the wood with your blade… not even a mark!
How sophisticated is the illusion?It's of the "permanent image" level of sophistication, which means there is a tactile sensation. Does he still auto-disbelieve?
Here's your answer, all dished up and served on my behalf:
I would say that he thinks it's simply a door.
The knob doesn't turn, for some reason, and he can't seem to open it. If it's a PC interacting with it, let the player decide what the PC will do next. If its an NPC, the GM will have to decide what happens next. With the interaction of all 5 senses, I don't see how you can automatically disbelieve at first. Maybe you'd have to investigate the illusion more closely than say a silent image. Upon further inspection (I'm assuming a standard wooden door), the handle doesn't seem to move in the slightest. There is a keyhole, that doesn't seem to function. The hinge pins don't seem to be removable. You chop at the wood with your blade… not even a mark!
The illusion might even include vibration as part of its tactile sense, so the knob might turn and rattle like doorknobs do, but it still feels locked. The door might rattle in its frame, but feel like it is sturdily barred from the other side. The hinges are inaccessible (probably on the other side or else the illusionist has miscalculated and given the victims an obvious flaw in the illusion that might lead to a guaranteed disbelief).
The victim may have to resort to sundering the door, at which time its impervious nature would make it suspect.
And poor Silly Billy might, after beating on the impervious door for an hour or so, conclude that it is protected with powerful magic, and wizard-locked, and quite beyond his ability to open, so he wanders off to find some other place to adventure, never realinzing it was a grand illusion.
After all, that is what the illusionist really wanted, right? He put it there to fool intruders. I doubt he put it there so that they could quickly discern that the door is an illusion - what would be the point of that?
I rewrote the poem:
There once was a wizard named Mores,
who was fond of all kinds of doors,
so everywhere he went
his spells were spent
on making illusory doors;
never were there enough for Mores!
To Mores' doors along came Billy
whose save was so low it was silly,
He reached for a knob and let out a gasp
as the illusory knob went through his grasp.
Over and over again tried poor Billy,
whose save was so low it was silly.
I hate that I can't edit the first post. 8^(
That reminds me of an ingenious trap designed to too-clever-for-their-own-good characters : the illusory bridge. Over a deep chasm, of course :-)
Another answer for billy would perhaps be that he thinks the door is incorporeal, in other words he knows that it is not a normal door, but he still fails to grasp the fact that it is an illusion.
Nice poem :)
Here comes the brain wrencher:
Billy grabs the door knob, he tries to open by truning the knob, then he tries to open it by pushing slightly, then more violently.
The question is: at what point would Billy simply push "through" the illusionary door (or would the door support him as long as he believes it so)?
How sophisticated is the illusion?It's of the "permanent image" level of sophistication, which means there is a tactile sensation. Does he still auto-disbelieve?
Wait a sec… I just read the description of Permanent Image and there is no indication that it has a "tactile" sensation. It just indicates: sight, hearing, smell, and heat/cold.
So my previous opinion has changed. Upon Billy noticing that his hand now goes through the door, I would say that is grounds for auto-disbelief. Or at the very least, that the door doesn't seem to impede him moving through it and he can make what he wants of that development.
I just think that this is a poor use of Permanent Image, if that is the case. It only uses one of the four elements that can be used. As the illusion stands, it is still better than a Silent Image version of a door because of a higher DC (which in all likely-hood won't matter in this case) and the fact that it's permanent.
Personally, regarding this particular illusion, I wouldn't allow a save to be made, unless interacted with. And then, it's probably an auto-save. That seems weird, especially for a 6th level spell, but I just think in the end, it's a poor use of the spell which has the potential for much more than this. I guess the save is there if it is needed, but often-times is not. Actually, I can see a save come up without interacting with the door, if Billy had been in the area that the door was created before:
Now there! A door where there was none before,
Billy to wit, rolled swiftly his score,
Poor Billy tis' sad, believed in the door.
But then again, he'd probably get the auto-save once he tries to open it.
A better use of the spell would be to make several illusory doors all within range of the spell. Then it doesn't matter if it's an auto-success on the save. Just because you disbelieve one door, shouldn't mean you now disbelieve all of them created from one casting of the spell. Especially if some of them are actually real.
Illusions are tough.
Wait a sec… I just read the description of Permanent Image and there is no indication that it has a "tactile" sensation. It just indicates: sight, hearing, smell, and heat/cold.How sophisticated is the illusion?It's of the "permanent image" level of sophistication, which means there is a tactile sensation. Does he still auto-disbelieve?
That's odd. I must have misread it. I'm playing in Pathfinder, but I checked it against the v3.5 spell and neither one of them says tactile...
...sorry about that.
Wait a sec… I just read the description of Permanent Image and there is no indication that it has a "tactile" sensation. It just indicates: sight, hearing, smell, and heat/cold.How sophisticated is the illusion?It's of the "permanent image" level of sophistication, which means there is a tactile sensation. Does he still auto-disbelieve?That's odd. I must have misread it. I'm playing in Pathfinder, but I checked it against the v3.5 spell and neither one of them says tactile...
...sorry about that.
Must have been the blindfold :P
EDIT: and yeah, I hate it when that happens to me too.
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I just think that this is a poor use of Permanent Image, if that is the case. It only uses one of the four elements that can be used. As the illusion stands, it is still better than a Silent Image version of a door because of a higher DC (which in all likely-hood won't matter in this case) and the fact that it's permanent.
I disagree. Because it's permanent and has no expensive material components. You can spam it as much as you want in your fortress at no cost. You can then use the illusory walls for full concealment while you blast spells through them. They would likely auto disbelieve when the spell hits them but then you can move on into the next room with illusory doors, or with real doors. Maybe passwall?
Create an illusory door going to an illusory room that's over a 100' deep chasm... heck just build a lair where no one can tell what's real and what's illusion until they touch it. Make sure to cover all the walls with illusions also so the fake parts don't stick out with detect magic.
I'm a big fan of permanent duration spells and long duration spells.
I disagree. Because it's permanent and has no expensive material components. You can spam it as much as you want in your fortress at no cost. You can then use the illusory walls for full concealment while you blast spells through them. They would likely auto disbelieve when the spell hits them but then you can move on into the next room with illusory doors, or with real doors. Maybe passwall?Create an illusory door going to an illusory room that's over a 100' deep chasm... heck just build a lair where no one can tell what's real and what's illusion until they touch it. Make sure to cover all the walls with illusions also so the fake parts don't stick out with detect magic.
I'm a big fan of permanent duration spells and long duration spells.
I agree with You, but I was inferring that the spell was used to make ONE illusory door which has been my operating assumption in entering the thread. That's a poor use of the spell IMO. I even said a better use of the spell would be to create several illusory doors:
A better use of the spell would be to make several illusory doors all within range of the spell. Then it doesn't matter if it's an auto-success on the save. Just because you disbelieve one door, shouldn't mean you now disbelieve all of them created from one casting of the spell. Especially if some of them are actually real.
Obviously, the usefulness changes when you add more to the illusory environment (i.e. create several doors from one casting or cast the spell several times to create one door per casting). But just creating an illusory door in and of itself is IMO a poor use of this spell. That's all.
<3 Ogre.