We had a problem come up in our game last week and I was hoping to get an answer. Here's the situation: The PCs are chasing a ghoul with some rogue levels down an 800 foot corridor that's only 5 feet wide. The barbarian is in melee range of the ghoul and a PC rogue wants to use Acrobatics to move through the square the barbarian is in plus the square the ghoul is in so he can set up a flanking position. Using a simple chart we have this before any rolls are made:
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According to the rulebook the DC to move through the square would be: the Ghoul's CMD +5, which in this case was 38.
The PC Rogue rolls and fails. Both the PSRD and Rulebook don't say what happens when you fail, other than that you suffer the attack of opportunity. So, does the PC Rogue end up flanking the ghoul, or is he prevented from moving through the square? Does the errata clear this up?
(I ruled that he moved through the square and the ghoul got an AOO.)
Hyrum.
Your ruling sounds fair in the "err-on-the-side-of-fun" mentality.
A harsher DM could have ruled that if the Ghoul hit the rogue, the rogue could end up prone in the barbarian's square.
I thought it was an actual rule somewhere, but after being unable to find the it, I guess it may just be a house rule: Failing the tumble/acrobatics checks to go through/around an enemy provokes an AoO. <house rule part> If that attack hits, the tumbler is knocked prone.
This comes up in our games, too. The default penalty for failing such an acrobatics roll is, as you said, suffering the attack of opportunity. The attack of opportunity should be resolved as soon as it applies, and then the rogue finishes their move action (assuming they are able to do so after suffering the AoO).
That's how we do it at least.
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We had a problem come up in our game last week and I was hoping to get an answer. Here's the situation: The PCs are chasing a ghoul with some rogue levels down an 800 foot corridor that's only 5 feet wide. The barbarian is in melee range of the ghoul and a PC rogue wants to use Acrobatics to move through the square the barbarian is in plus the square the ghoul is in so he can set up a flanking position. Using a simple chart we have this before any rolls are made:
| |
| |
|R|
|B|
|G|
| |
| |
| |According to the rulebook the DC to move through the square would be: the Ghoul's CMD +5, which in this case was 38.
The PC Rogue rolls and fails. Both the PSRD and Rulebook don't say what happens when you fail, other than that you suffer the attack of opportunity. So, does the PC Rogue end up flanking the ghoul, or is he prevented from moving through the square? Does the errata clear this up?
(I ruled that he moved through the square and the ghoul got an AOO.)
Hyrum.
I'd rule it like bull rush or overrun, if he fails he can't get past falls down and provokes an AoO.
The same situation came up in one of my games and the DM ruled it was just the AoO as you did.
Upon further reflection, though, doesn't mean that anyone can move through opponents' squares? Just attempt the acrobatics check (even untrained) and if you fail you simply suffer the AoO. I think a ruling more consistent with things like bullrush, etc. would be that movement is stopped and they suffer the AoO. In this case, since his movement is stopped in a square currently occupied by another creature, he would fall prone.
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The same situation came up in one of my games and the DM ruled it was just the AoO as you did.
Upon further reflection, though, doesn't mean that anyone can move through opponents' squares? Just attempt the acrobatics check (even untrained) and if you fail you simply suffer the AoO. I think a ruling more consistent with things like bullrush, etc. would be that movement is stopped and they suffer the AoO. In this case, since his movement is stopped in a square currently occupied by another creature, he would fall prone.
Bingo!
The same situation came up in one of my games and the DM ruled it was just the AoO as you did.
Upon further reflection, though, doesn't mean that anyone can move through opponents' squares? Just attempt the acrobatics check (even untrained) and if you fail you simply suffer the AoO. I think a ruling more consistent with things like bullrush, etc. would be that movement is stopped and they suffer the AoO. In this case, since his movement is stopped in a square currently occupied by another creature, he would fall prone.
+1 except I would say that the tumbler would say where he was, not fall prone.
+1 except I would say that the tumbler would say where he was, not fall prone.The same situation came up in one of my games and the DM ruled it was just the AoO as you did.
Upon further reflection, though, doesn't mean that anyone can move through opponents' squares? Just attempt the acrobatics check (even untrained) and if you fail you simply suffer the AoO. I think a ruling more consistent with things like bullrush, etc. would be that movement is stopped and they suffer the AoO. In this case, since his movement is stopped in a square currently occupied by another creature, he would fall prone.
Yes, I still have 3.5 on the brain where if you end up in a space occupied by another creature you would fall prone. It seems PF has done away with this and allowed you to be shunted back to the nearest legal space and remain standing.
So - a failed check in this case would waste the move action, provoke an AoO (while he was in the barbarian's space) then have him moved back to the space he started in.
We had this same issue. We ruled that 1) if you were just moving through a threatened square and failed that you provoke and continue to move as desired, and 2) if you were trying to move through an opponent's square that you provoke and stop at the square from which you tried to enter.
Don't know if it's right or not but it was acceptable to everyone at our table.
M
The answer is there, in the text, but you have to dig for it a little.
First of all, in Combat, under Tactical Movement, it says:
You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless.
I hope everyone can agree that this rule is clear, simple, and unambiguous.
Next, under the Acrobatics skill it says:
In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics.
Note that this says threatened, which is much different than occupied, but it's important to have clarity here. If you try to move through a threatened square without acrobatics, you will provoke an AoO. Using acrobatics, you can move through the threatened square without provoking on a successful roll. Which means, by default, failure on the roll will provoke the AoO. In none of those cases is your movement stopped, so regardless of whether you provoke the AoO and also regardless of whether you are hit with the AoO (if there is one), you can complete your movement.
The key point to remember is that you are rolling against your Acrobatics skill not to move, but rather, to avoid provoking the AoO. Failure on the skill check means you fail to avoid provoking the AoO, but the failed roll has no impact on your movement.
Note: Yes, I know, some feats and attack types might cause your movement to end, but that is specific to those special cases, not to the general rule.
Finally, also under Combat, Tactical Movement, it says:
Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to use Acrobatics to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see the Acrobatics skill).
First note that it says you must be trained. This means at least one rank in Acrobatics or you cannot even make the attempt.
Second, note that this is an attempt to move through the space. That is quite different than using Acrobatics to attempt to avoid provoking an AoO. In this case, your roll is to attempt to move through the space, so if you succeed, you move successfully. If you fail, you cannot move through that space.
That's how it's written in the book.
Summary:
1. Movement through unoccupied thresatened squares is always possible to everyone, although it usually provokes an AoO. Such AoO's do not prevent the completion of the move. Anyone, trained or not, can attempt an Acrobatics check to avoid the AoO. Either way, the movement is completed.
2. Movement through occupied squares is normally impossible, though a trained acrobat can attempt to make such a move. However, failure on the acrobatics check means the attempted move itself has failed.
Ahh, that makes sense (although requiring training for some aspects of the skill but not for the skill in general is confusing). It would be nice if it was listed so nicely under the skill, though. Thanks!
That does make sense, thanks Blake!
Hyrum.