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Hi all,
With my first post, I thought I'd contribute something fun that my friend Alec H. and I have been working on. We'd love to hear any feedback you fine folks may have. Again, this is my first post so please forgive the atrocious formatting.
This is a conversion/upgrade of the enlightened fist prestige class found in the Complete Arcane.
REQUIREMENTS
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks
Feats: Combat Casting, Stunning Fist
Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 3rd.
CLASS SKILLS
Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Knowledge (arcana), Perception, Spellcraft.
TABLE
Level____BAB______Fort_____Ref_____Will_____Special________________________ __Spells per Day/Spells Known
1st______+0_______+0______+1_____+1______Ki pool (magic), Arcane Fist, monk abilities___--
2nd____ _+1_______+1______+1_____+1______Fist of Energy 1d6__________________________+1 lvl arcane spellcasting class
3rd______+2_______+1______+2_____+2______Ki Power___________________________________+1 lvl arcane spellcasting class
4th______+3_______+1______+2_____+2______Fist of Energy 2d6__________________________+1 lvl arcane spellcasting class
5th______+3_______+1______+3_____+3______Fist of Energy Burst_________________________+1 lvl arcane spellcasting class
6th _____+4_______+2______+3______+3_____Hold Ray___________________________________--
7th______+5_______+2______+4______+4_____Fist of Energy 3d6_________________________+1 lvl arcane spellcasting class
8th______+6_______+2______+4______+4_____Arcane Chakra_____________________________+1 lvl arcane spellcasting class
9th______+6_______+3______+5______+5_____Diamond Soul _____________________________+1 lvl arcane spellcasting class
10th_____+7_______+3______+5______+5_____Flurry of Spells____________________________+1 lvl arcane spellcasting class
CLASS FEATURES
Weapon and armor proficiency: nothing new here!
Spells: See table.
Ki pool (magic) (Su): Enlightened fists gain access to a ki pool just as a level 4 monk does and may spend ki points on any ki abilities available to a level 4 monk.
Arcane Fist (Su): An enlightened fist can spend one of her daily Stunning Fist attempts to cast and deliver a touch spell as part of an unarmed full attack action. She can choose to deliver the touch spell with any single unarmed strike attack she makes during the action.
Monk Abilites: An enlightened fist adds her class level to her monk level to determine her class-based AC bonus, her unarmed damage, her unarmored speed bonus, her ki pool and the number of daily attempts of her Stunning Fist feat. If she has no monk levels, she gains the AC bonus, unarmed damage, unarmored speed bonus and ki pool of a monk whose level equals her enlightened fist level, but she can't add her Wisdom bonus to her AC. An enlightened fist does not gain any other monk class features (except for Diamond Soul at level 9). Any Feats that effect how a monk calculates these features carries over to the enlightened fist.
Fist of Energy (Su): At 2nd level, the enlightened fist picks either the fire, ice, or electric element. She can spend a point of Ki to gain an extra 1d6 damage of that element to your attack for one round. This bonus increases to 2d6 at level 4 and 3d6 at level 7.
At level 5, the enlightened fist permanently upgrades Fist of Energy with the critical burst ability of the element she picked at level 2 (flaming burst, icy burst or shocking burst). This effect stacks with the damage upgrades Fist of Energy receives at levels 4 and 7.
Ki Power (Su): At 3rd level an Enlightened Fist learns to channel ki into arcane power. Whenever she uses a spell through Arcane Fist he can spend upto 1/2 EF level points from his Ki pool. Each point spent in this way increases her caster level by 1 for that spell.
Hold Ray (Ex): At 6th level or higher, the enlightened fist can cast any spell that produces a ray as a touch spell instead for use with the arcane fist ability.
Arcane Chakra (Su): An 8th level enlightened fist has further learned to synergize her ki with her arcane power. As a swift action, she may expend a spell to gain its spell level in Ki points. She may never have more Ki points than her pool maximum and any arcane "overflow" is lost to the ether. Wizards expending a spell from an opposition school still expend both slots used to prepare the spell, and do not get any additional bonus for doing so.
Diamond Soul (Ex): At 9th level the nlightened fist gains spell resistance equal to 10 + the total of her monk levels and enlightened fist levels.
Flurry of Spells (Su): The enlightened fist can incorporate more arcane power into their unarmed attacks at level 10. She may now use the Arcane Fist ability twice in a full attack action.
I think it is a pretty nice conversion. A few thoughts:
* With "Magical Knack" (trait) a monk character needs a single level in Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard to be able to enter the Prestige Class
* Arcane Fist (particularly with the upgrades via Hold Ray and Flurry of Spells) may be a bit too powerful if the spell's attack is still a "touch" attack; since that'll allow full-round flurry of many attacks including at least one "easy" attack (a touch attack) that is particularly potent (the spell load)
* It is unclear if the Arcane Fist ability still delivers the normal unarmed damage on "Arcane Fist" attacks or just on the other ones
* Flurry of Spells isn't clear whether using two spells also costs two Stunning Fist attempts
* The description suggests (and I hope this is the case) that the character does not gain additional flurry-feats at appropriate levels, but it isn't entirely clear (in conjunction with the quote in the next point)
* The description says "Any Feats that effect how a monk calculates these features carries over to the enlightened fist." Does this mean that the character can use her Enlightened Fist level for determining BAB when performing a flurry?
* Ki Power is too strong in my opinion, and (in keeping with the less variable numbers of Pathfinder), I'd rather use "as a swift action she may spend a ki point to gain a +2 bonus to CL"
* Arcane Chakra is too strong too, in my opinion; I wouldn't allow recovering ki points so easily - it is (and should be) a very limited resource for the monk. Instead I'd suggest the following:
- at level 1 of Enlightened Fist: also gain "Arcane Strike" feat
- Arcane Chakra (gained at level 8 enlightened fist): expend a spell as a swift action to gain its minimum caster level as a bonus for the purposes of calculating the effect of Arcane Strike for 1 round. CL cannot be increased beyond 20 this way
As one of the authors of this conversion allow me to explain the choices and clarify:
Clarifications:
Arcane Fist does not allow a touch attack, they must actually hit with a normal attack to deliver the spell.
Flurry of Spells allows two Arcane Fist attempts. It does not say that it allows arcane fist to strike with two spells. Thus it requires two stunning fist charges.
It says it stacks with feats for determining how the monk calculates their pools refers to ki and stunning fist type feats. Ones that expand the ability of the original class. It is somewhat redundant in this sense. It does NOT refer to class powers.
This class does not stack with flurry of blows. There is no PrC of which I am aware that does.
Explanations:
Ki Power exists purely to remove the need for the Practiced Spell-caster feat. An enlightened fist will sacrifice 5 levels of casting in its build (if not more) 3 from monk and another two from the class itself. As it is a casting based class spell power and penetration are absolutely necessary for remaining effective. Therefore certain players will see it as necessary to hike their caster level to balance this out, essentially adding another required feat. Along with the chance that an Arcane Fist attack will miss, thus wasting the spell, the Enlightened Fist's player needs to be sure that those attacks that do hit count.
Arcane Chakra is in my opinion, rather underpowered. To maintain combat effectively it will probably eat up a solid 5 - 10 levels of spell. Not something most casters want to lose. It should however also read-
"These extra points last a number of rounds equal to the Enlightened Fist class level. After which time unspent points are lost completely."
This stops a caster from unloading their low level spells before (or after) battle to recharge their pool.
That all said, this class was made with the intent to make it content with other casting classes. The loss of caster levels and melee focus left it slightly behind a straight wizard in terms of power. However, if you are playing in a lower power game, or simply with less experienced players it is entirely reasonable to weaken a few of its abilities.
Hopefully this helps clear up some questions.
Woo! Monk-based PRC! Any chance I could request the Acolyte of the Fist and/or the Animal Shen PrCs?
I have played an Enlightened Fist in 3.5 and had fun, despite it being such a weak class.
Requiring 3rd level spells for the entry requirement instead of 2nd is a mistake. This is a class designed to allow two classes with no real synergy to work together (wizard/monk or sorcerer/monk). As such the entry point needs to be at the minimum for prestige classes. It should also be the same for wizards and sorcerers.
Moving Arcane Fist to first level does not help much. It seems like the signature ability of the class and as such should not be obtainable by dipping one level. It is also near useless at 1st level (and not much better at third. The EF will have a poor BAB, lowish hit pointe and lower AC than equivalent level monk. Trying to do full attacks is not a great idea (speaking from experience). A monk 1/sorcerer 6/EF 1 would have a BAB of +4 at 8th level - the same as a single classes wizard. In 3.5 mine had the same as a monk 1/sorcerer 4/EF 3, so this isn't any worse. Arcane Fist really needs to be a standard action, single attack.
Fist of Energy was obsoleted for most purposes by Arcane Fist with Shocking Grasp in 3.5. Here it is obsoleted before it starts, though it later becomes better than a first level spell, I doubt it would ever be particularly useful. Making Fist of Power the full attack option and Arcane Fist the standard action one might work. The birst ability is just flavour given that unarmed attacks only crity on 20 (as a base).
Diamond Soul is a moderate ability for a single classed monk, when you have had to take at least 5 levels it won't count it becomes weak.
These problems are not the fault of the conversion - mostly they exist in the 3.5 version.
Nice job.
I presume since you did not specify that it is still:
Hit Die: d8.
Skill Ranks at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
It appears you dropped Craft, Knowledge (religion), Profession, Stealth, and Swim from the class skills. Personally I would have kept them even though they would most likely also be class skills of classes you used to meet the prerequisites (as Knwoledge (arcane) is a class skill for all arcane casting classes I know of and you included it).
One point I'm unclear on regarding Fist of Energy. When you say the critical burst "stacks with the damage upgrades Fist of Energy receives at levels 4 and 7", you mean a crit adds +2d6 (energy type) damage and +1d10 (energy type) damage at 4th and +3d6 (energy type) damage and +1d10 (energy type) damage at 7th, correct?
pjackson wrote: I have played an Enlightened Fist in 3.5 and had fun, despite it being such a weak class.
Requiring 3rd level spells for the entry requirement instead of 2nd is a mistake. This is a class designed to allow two classes with no real synergy to work together (wizard/monk or sorcerer/monk). As such the entry point needs to be at the minimum for prestige classes. It should also be the same for wizards and sorcerers.
Moving Arcane Fist to first level does not help much. It seems like the signature ability of the class and as such should not be obtainable by dipping one level. It is also near useless at 1st level (and not much better at third. The EF will have a poor BAB, lowish hit pointe and lower AC than equivalent level monk. Trying to do full attacks is not a great idea (speaking from experience). A monk 1/sorcerer 6/EF 1 would have a BAB of +4 at 8th level - the same as a single classes wizard. In 3.5 mine had the same as a monk 1/sorcerer 4/EF 3, so this isn't any worse. Arcane Fist really needs to be a standard action, single attack.
Fist of Energy was obsoleted for most purposes by Arcane Fist with Shocking Grasp in 3.5. Here it is obsoleted before it starts, though it later becomes better than a first level spell, I doubt it would ever be particularly useful. Making Fist of Power the full attack option and Arcane Fist the standard action one might work. The birst ability is just flavour given that unarmed attacks only crity on 20 (as a base).
Diamond Soul is a moderate ability for a single classed monk, when you have had to take at least 5 levels it won't count it becomes weak.
These problems are not the fault of the conversion - mostly they exist in the 3.5 version.
In order of Points Made:
-It does not say 3rd level spells. It says Arcane Caster level 3rd, so your CL need only be 3 to qualify.
-Arcane Fist is fine at first level. The loss of a caster level utterly deters any caster from dipping, and the loss of a point of base attack deters warriors. I do however agree that the full attack hurts, but standard action is no better. Given that the class is a caster one assume that they will use other spells (like True Strike) to make the Arcane Fist land.
-Assuming you play a Sorcerer or Wizard then yes, your base attack will probably be poor. But this conversion assumes some access to other 3.5 classes. Hexblade, Duskblade, and Warmage are all reasonable for entry and have a more respectable combat prowess. As are some other PrCs with more limited spell lists.
-Fists of Energy, and its subsequent burst enhancement are more for flavor. However that isn't to say that they are too weak. For one they are untyped and stack with other bonuses. Also, they apply to the full action. A Hasted Flurrying Enlightened Fist will get up to 5 attacks (assuming no polymorph cheese). Adding 3d6 to each is fairly threatening to an opponent caught off guard. Especially if you just spent the first action screwing their AC with Bestow Curse or Shivering Touch.
-Diamond Soul and Fists of Energy are designed to improve with the class. There needs to be some incentive to finish off that class otherwise you end up with things like the Malconvoker (who is really only worth taking to level 6) or even worse the eminently dippable Mind Bender. Someone who leaves the class early will not be as good at the classes abilities as someone who sticks through to level 10.
All that said, I agree that Arcane Fist might need to be reconsidered as either as an enhancement to any attack, not just one made as part of a full attack.
I'll finish with an example:
A 10th level Enlightened Fist (Monk 2, Warmage 3, EF 10) with the multiattack feat can jump into battle by polymorphing themselves into an octopus, with true strike. The proceed to deliver 10 attacks (8 arms, Flurry and Haste) each dealing 3d6 extra damage.
The first two also contain two blasts of attribute damage (lets say 3d6 Dex from Shivering Touch) which should cripple most enemies. His caster level is 16 for those spells, up to 20 or so with feats. So SR isn't a problem. If the target is immune to ability damage it could just be two castings of disintegrate, or anything else you like. They do not get attacks of opportunity for this.
The following 30d6 or so damage is really just for kicks. I suppose they could also use a stunning fist attempt in there as well. But what is the point.
(The above example assumes an unusually optimized character)
I have made several attempts to write a single reply to this which have all disappeared, so I am going to do it in several shorter ones
fallen-angle wrote: -It does not say 3rd level spells. It says Arcane Caster level 3rd, so your CL need only be 3 to qualify.
Sorry I misread.
fallen-angle wrote:
-Arcane Fist is fine at first level. The loss of a caster level utterly deters any caster from dipping, and the loss of a point of base attack deters warriors. I do however agree that the full attack hurts, but standard action is no better. Given that the class is a caster one assume that they will use other spells (like True Strike) to make the Arcane Fist land.
I agree is is so weak it does not matter if it is at first level.
It is not a caster class though, it is clearly meant to be a gish - giving up some casting abilities for better melee. True Strike does not work well for an EF. Until it can be quickened it would restrict you to attacking every other round, and means you are using 2 spells per attack, neither of which go well with giving up levels of spells per day.
fallen-angle wrote:
-Assuming you play a Sorcerer or Wizard then yes, your base attack will probably be poor. But this conversion assumes some access to other 3.5 classes. Hexblade, Duskblade, and Warmage are all reasonable for entry and have a more respectable combat prowess. As are some other PrCs with more limited spell lists.
Not working well with the core arcane caster classes, and only working well with non-Pathfinder classes are major problems.
fallen-angle wrote:
-Fists of Energy, and its subsequent burst enhancement are more for flavor. However that isn't to say that they are too weak. For one they are untyped and stack with other bonuses. Also, they apply to the full action. A Hasted Flurrying Enlightened Fist will get up to 5 attacks (assuming no polymorph cheese). Adding 3d6 to each is fairly threatening to an opponent caught off guard. Especially if you just spent the first action screwing their AC with Bestow Curse or Shivering Touch.
They are typed - "fire, ice, or electric element" though I preferred being able to choose when ever you used the ability, They almost certainly do stack. 1d6 is weak because you can get 5d6 from a 1st level spell with arcane fist. 2d6 and 3d6 are better, but probably still not worth using instead of a spell. If Shivering Touch is allowed it would be better to cast it a second time rather than use Fist of Energy, but I'd rather discuss games that do not allow broken stuff like that. I rejected taking it when I was playing a 3.5 EF.
fallen-angle wrote:
-Diamond Soul and Fists of Energy are designed to improve with the class. There needs to be some incentive to finish off that class otherwise you end up with things like the Malconvoker (who is really only worth taking to level 6) or even worse the eminently dippable Mind Bender. Someone who leaves the class early will not be as good at the classes abilities as someone who sticks through to level 10.
{/quote]
My point was that SR less that hit dice plus 10 is weak. A single class monk gets enough because all his levels stack. A EF has some levels (at least 3) that do not count.
Level 10 is not the finish, just a pausing point, but I certainly agree with having abilities that improve with class level. Unfortunately these aren't good enough to be much of an incentive. (Though Fists of Energy is close.).
fallen-angle wrote:
All that said, I agree that Arcane Fist might need to be reconsidered as either as an enhancement to any attack, not just one made as part of a full attack.
Yes.
fallen-angle wrote:
I'll finish with an example:
A 10th level Enlightened Fist (Monk 2, Warmage 3, EF 10) with the multiattack feat can jump into battle by polymorphing themselves into an octopus, with true strike. The proceed to deliver 10 attacks (8 arms, Flurry and Haste) each dealing 3d6 extra damage.
The first two also contain two blasts of attribute damage (lets say 3d6 Dex from Shivering Touch) which should cripple most enemies. His caster level is 16 for those spells, up to 20 or so with feats. So SR isn't a problem. If the target is immune to ability damage it could just be two castings of disintegrate, or anything else you like. They do not get attacks of opportunity for this.
The following 30d6 or so damage is really just for kicks. I suppose they could also use a stunning fist attempt in there as well. But what is the point.
(The above example assumes an unusually optimized character)
A unusually poorly optimized one in my eyes. An octopus isn't going to be leaping anywhere, though in water it might swim somewhere. Octopus arms are not unarmed strikes or special monk weapons so you can not use them with a flurry. You can not cast spells as an octopus, unless they are stilled, silent and you have eschew materials. You have to move next to the opponent to do a full attack, and wait for your next round. In that time they get the chance to full attack you, which is likely to hurt badly at that level, True Strike only works for one attack so you may well miss with several. They would not get attacks of ooportunity if you stayed back and just cast disintegrate on the first round, except that you can only cast 5th level spells. (monk 1, warmage 4, ef 10 could do so).
The ability to cast 3 spells in a round is powerful (one quickend and 2 through flurry of spells), and given the types of spells it is limited to possibly not overpowered for the minimum level you can get it. But that does not make up for the weaknesses at lower levels.
By the way the 3.5 EF I played was on track to be doing a 20d6 touch attack as a standard action by level 12, though the game folded before then. That used none of the EF class features, just a metamagiced spell.
I feel I ought to offer some constructive suggestions.
Looking at the description in Complete Arcane it is clear the class is supposed to focus on delivery touch spells and magically enhanced unarmed combat. It should be possible to enter as a monk/wizard or monk/sorcerer.
I think class should work at all levels, not be poor initially and come good later.
So considering first level with 4 possible builds
Monk 1/Wizard 4/EF 1
Monk 2/Wizard 3/EF 2
Monk 1/Sorcerer 4/EF 1
Monk 2/Sorcerer 3/EF 1
They all have BAB +2 - worse than a straight wizard. With a lower caster level, fewer spells, and a worse BAB they seem worse than a straight wizard at delivering touch spells. They are giving up meleee abilities compared to a Monk, and spells per day compared to a full caster, so should be better at their speciality,
Ki Pool(magic) is is good, but the number of points shoe be half the combined monk + EF levels plus the higher of the EF's Int or Cha bonus.
Having taking levels in an arcane class the EF will get fewer points from levels than a straight monk, so he should be allowed to use his primary casting attribute for this. If a EF gives up more casting levels to Monk 4 then allow him to use his Wis bonus in addition.
Monk Abilities - no problem.
Arcane Fist - I'd move that back to third level, so as not to make the class too front ended, as there are other things I think it needs at first.
Touch Spell Mastery - A EF can add any levels in monk they have to the caster level of any spells they cast with range touch. (This makes taking extra monk levels less of a problem).
When attempting to deliver a touch spell with either a melee touch attack or an unarmed strike an EF gets +1 to hit. This bonus inceases by +1 every four levels after 1st. (It is not a conincidence that this means it will increase at every level an EF's BAB does not increase.)
Once a day a EF can cast any one arcane touch spell they know as if they had an extra slot of the highest level arcane spell they could otherwise cast. No metamagic magic may be used with this spell. This spell does not need to be prepared even if the EF has levels in a class that normally prepares spells. For every 5 levels beyond first they may do this one extra time a day. (That is at every level they do not gain normal extra spells per day).
Even with these changes a EF will still have only the same chance to hit as a wizard until EF3, a lower caster level with touch spells, and be able to cast fewer touch spells per day than a straight wizard, as well not being able to cast such high level spells. A EF will have a bit better AC, better saves, a few more hit points, more class skills and skills points. An EF is probably still weaker than a straight wizard at delivering touch spells, but not by as much.
An EF 1 would have lower AC than a straight monk, worse BAB, fewer HP worse flurry, fewer feats, and missing class abilites, but would be able to self bugg with things like mage armour, shield, enlarge, and deliver a few more powerful attacks using spells like shocking grasp or chill touch. That seems reasonably balanced.
To Be Continued
So second level of EF, considering the builds
Monk 1/Wizard 4/EF 2
Monk 2/Wizard 3/EF 2
Monk 1/Sorcerer 4/EF 2
Monk 2/Sorcerer 3/EF 2
Fist of Energy gives a way to magically enhance unarmed strikes that doies not use spell so hell to make up for the fewer spells a EF gets that a wizard in a way theat fits the theme. The choice of fire or electricity when you use it is enough to allow it to work against most creatures. It is a bit weak though.
Making it work as a ki pool power makes a lot of sense.
A 7th level monk can flurry and spend a ki point to make 4 attacks +5/+5/+5/+0 for 1d8 plus bonuses each.
An Ef spending a ki point for Fist of energy would be doing +2/+2 for 1d6+1d6 plus bonuses each.
Using Shocking Grasp a EF could make a +5 touch attack for 5d6.
Whilst a EF should be worse than a monk when not using an special power they should not be so far behind when using one, nor should a first level outshine a class ability gained at a minimu character level of 7 which can only be used a few times a day.
I would have Fist of Energy grant a +1 enehancement bonus to hit and to damage as well as the +1d6 fire or electricity. That brings using it closer to what a monk can do, and closer to using a 1st level spell.
It ahould also make the EF's unarmed attacks count as magical for the round, even it emeptied the Ki pool.
To Be Continued
Been thinking about this a bit.
There need to be more distinction between Arcane Fist and Fist of Energy.
Also since the class is supposed to be in melee it needs to be able to do more than match a monk for a hanful of rounds per day.
Another point is that they should be deliverying touch attacks with unsrmed strikes, but melee touch attacks have many advantages for doing that, so they need to be made closer.
So the class abilities become:
1st level
Ki Pool - like monk but using Int or Cha instead of Wis
Monk Abilities - as OP
Touch spell Mastery - Add monk levels to caster level of touch spells. +1 to hit when deliverying touch spells, increasing by +1 for each 4 levels beyond first. 1/day cast an arcane touch spell as if you have an extra slot ofyour highest arcane spell level, with one extra time per day for each 5 levels after first. If you make a critical hit with an unarmed strike when delivery a touch spell, you may choose to have the critical apply to the spell rather than the melee attack, as if you had criticalled with a melee touch attack to deliver it.
2nd level.
Fist of Energy - Spend a point from your Ki Pool to give your unarmed stikes a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage and to add 1d6 fire or electic damage toeach attack for 1 round per class level. Chose the energy type when you use this ability.
3rd Level.
Arcane Fist - By spending a point from your Ki Pool you can quicken a touch spell, except that you would not get the ability to make a free action to deliver the spell that is normal for touch attack spells.
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