When I recently ran the Skinsaw Murders, I had players trying to carefully go over the Sandpoint Sawmill scene looking for clues. They easily found the ones that were in the adventure, but then they were still trying to find more. :(
Fortunately, they were – out loud – reminding themselves that many of the techniques that they wanted to use were not invented yet.
Of course I asked about this, and found out that three of the players (i.e., most of the party, including my RL wife) are big CSI fans. I had never watched the show – at all.
Then, without thinking, I reminded them of “CSI: Shrewsbury”; which they then took as license to try to figure out what Forensic techniques they could use. :(
So, I am now looking at having to redesign any “mystery” encounters in the remainder of the AP (and any future adventures that I run), to take into account Forensic investigation techniques.
Have other GMs run into this problem? :)
Looks like your players...
...saw what was afoot.
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My players caught themselves coming close to this once in our Curse of the Crimson Throne game.
The clergy of the death goddess in my homebrew actually specialize in forensics. I went ahead and gave that skill to a Pharasman priestess the fighter in the CotCT game took as a follower, so now if they want to get all crime-scene-investigaty, they have an actual expert on hand!
YEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Mikaze, the video you attempted to link has already been pulled.
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YEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!Mikaze, the video you attempted to link has already been pulled.
Damnation, and I can't access YouTube at the moment. Blind-fixing! May work now.
My players caught themselves coming close to this once in our Curse of the Crimson Throne game.
They should read Brother Cadfael. ;D
All my players are fans of Cthulhu and Delta Green and use the forensic approach too.
I have no issues with it at all. Skill ranks in Herbalism, Alchemy and Knowledge (Whatever) are important and I think it encourages roleplay and different thinking.
Fingerprints? Sure alchemical smoke which adheres to the greasy print. Now go match them.
Blood? Sure alchemical test to distinguish between animal and human or elf and human.
Dried Blood? Again alchemical solution sprayed to act like luminol.
To me its far less game breaking than Detect Evil/Zone of Truth and old school Know Alignment/Detect Lies. Getting clues is one thing, correct interpretation is another.
Cadfael is fantastic for ingame forensics.
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My players caught themselves coming close to this once in our Curse of the Crimson Throne game.They should read Brother Cadfael. ;D
Bizarrely, I just picked up a Sister Fidelma novel last week as a gift. :O
I've been wanting to pick up that mystery series set in Ancient Egypt for a while too, though I can never recall the name whenever I think to look it up.
All my players are fans of Cthulhu and Delta Green and use the forensic approach too.
I have no issues with it at all. Skill ranks in Herbalism, Alchemy and Knowledge (Whatever) are important and I think it encourages roleplay and different thinking.
Fingerprints? Sure alchemical smoke which adheres to the greasy print. Now go match them.
Blood? Sure alchemical test to distinguish between animal and human or elf and human.
Dried Blood? Again alchemical solution sprayed to act like luminol.To me its far less game breaking than Detect Evil/Zone of Truth and old school Know Alignment/Detect Lies. Getting clues is one thing, correct interpretation is another.
Cadfael is fantastic for ingame forensics.
Yes, Ellis Peters is. The best thing is that it does not require any "modern" inventions to be replicated for in-game use.
But it requires the GM to do his homework and re-write several scenes with the information that should be there to find.
I threw 'One Corpse to Many' into a Chivalry and Sorcery campaign once..totally bamboozled my players who went in every wrong direction they could until it got so bad I had to bring in a Cadfael clone NPC to show them the truth..it was fun though.
Nah, no CSI influence. Some CIS influence (since I work there), but the order in which the letters appear seems to be important for some reason.
Our players don't employ CSI clue-finding methods because we're not playing a game with such a high magic level. Forgotten Realms was border-line overmagicked for us, and CSI is several levels worse.
I do intend to play a criminal investigator with ARI when I play the next modern game.
Our players don't employ CSI clue-finding methods because we're not playing a game with such a high magic level. Forgotten Realms was border-line overmagicked for us, and CSI is several levels worse.
Odd, I would have thought a low magic game would be perfect for forensics. Craft (Alchemy) would be perfect to come up with stuff rather than rely on magic. I prefer my games to be low fantasy and you're right about FR.
Could you expand please?
A few years ago one of my students' dad was a CSI.
She was, um, not the brightest kid in the class.
Looks like some things...
don't run in the family.
My husband has a degree in Criminal Justice...so investigative procedures have always been a part of the games I run.
One of my players used their linguistics skill to do handwriting analysis of the notes. I thought it was pretty interesting, and I couldn't say that they wouldn't be able to match hand writing samples.
Another interesting thing was that the party also used their craft (alchemy) skill to analyze the drugs at the sanitorium to try and figure out what was going on there. Again, since it was a nice way to drop them some clues, I let them do so.
I did start getting a Forensics Files feel for the game after those two sessions . . . ;)
I DM a game in which my wife plays a dwarven fighter/rogue with a penchant for investigation. The second adventure I ran was a blackmail/extortion investigation that culminated in a public trial with the PCs as prosecutor and prosecutorial witnesses.
"This is highly irregular...but I'm going to allow it."
Zo
Our players don't employ CSI clue-finding methods because we're not playing a game with such a high magic level. Forgotten Realms was border-line overmagicked for us, and CSI is several levels worse.
Odd, I would have thought a low magic game would be perfect for forensics. Craft (Alchemy) would be perfect to come up with stuff rather than rely on magic. I prefer my games to be low fantasy and you're right about FR.
Could you expand please?
What I meant is that the stuff they're doing in CSI is beyond science fiction. It's pure High Magic. This stuff wouldn't fly in the Dresden Files, and the guy is a wizard slash private detective.
Just recently my PC group used counterforensics! They and this evil noble were fighting this giant spider. They killed the spider and then killed him, and made it look like the spider killed him, and then delivered the body to the evil priest who checked him over real well for cause of death. Simple opposed Heal check, the PCs won! (Of course the noble had been bitten by the spider at least once and they had a fresh spider corpse to poke at his body, so it was a good no-penalties kind of situation).
What I meant is that the stuff they're doing in CSI is beyond science fiction. It's pure High Magic. This stuff wouldn't fly in the Dresden Files, and the guy is a wizard slash private detective.
Our players don't employ CSI clue-finding methods because we're not playing a game with such a high magic level. Forgotten Realms was border-line overmagicked for us, and CSI is several levels worse.
Odd, I would have thought a low magic game would be perfect for forensics. Craft (Alchemy) would be perfect to come up with stuff rather than rely on magic. I prefer my games to be low fantasy and you're right about FR.
Could you expand please?
Gotcha.
We have played a lot of CoC 1890s and this has carried over a bit into PF. Not using science to solve a problem but "alchemy" rather than magic.
Curiosity:
The things you all are talking about largely work in our society because they are already accepted by the community, by science, and by the law, as being correct if used correctly.
How do You, the DM, handle such things in your campaign? Do the Kings/Queens (whoever) have investigative forces to look into stuff the PC's bring before them or does everyone just take the PC's word for it?
I mean, I can see them using skills to figure out a troll killed something and then going out to kill the troll- but handprint analysis, finger print matching and all that stuff would probably not be something that's worth a fig to any Magistrate in whatever kingdom.
I'm not tryin to be a nay-sayer, just tryin to figure out how it could be incorporated into a largely medieval type campaign.
-S
Spoilers for the Skinsaw Murders:
In Magnimar then ended up having to get on the good side of the Hellknight on the Justice Council before any evidence meant anything, but once a Hellknight on the Justice Council was okay with something, they were clear to do what needed to be done.
I think in a lot of cases, its going to boil down to if the PCs are on the good side of someone in a position of authority, as in the typical fantasy setting the right person in authority can pretty much do what they want if people can convince them that what they are saying has merit.
Curiosity:
The things you all are talking about largely work in our society because they are already accepted by the community, by science, and by the law, as being correct if used correctly.
How do You, the DM, handle such things in your campaign? Do the Kings/Queens (whoever) have investigative forces to look into stuff the PC's bring before them or does everyone just take the PC's word for it?
I mean, I can see them using skills to figure out a troll killed something and then going out to kill the troll- but handprint analysis, finger print matching and all that stuff would probably not be something that's worth a fig to any Magistrate in whatever kingdom.
I'm not tryin to be a nay-sayer, just tryin to figure out how it could be incorporated into a largely medieval type campaign.
You do bring up something that is important, which is one of the things that I was concerned about. Namely that many of the techniques we use to investigate crimes would be highly anachronistic even in Europen Renaissance setting.
But, since very few campaigns are set in China, that is not as helpful as it may sound.
Still, players may not be completely empty handed. The examples provided by Sister Fidelma and Brother Cadfael do provide some openings for the use of investiagative approaches.
All my players are fans of Cthulhu and Delta Green and use the forensic approach too.
I have no issues with it at all. Skill ranks in Herbalism, Alchemy and Knowledge (Whatever) are important and I think it encourages roleplay and different thinking.
Fingerprints? Sure alchemical smoke which adheres to the greasy print. Now go match them.
Blood? Sure alchemical test to distinguish between animal and human or elf and human.
Dried Blood? Again alchemical solution sprayed to act like luminol.To me its far less game breaking than Detect Evil/Zone of Truth and old school Know Alignment/Detect Lies. Getting clues is one thing, correct interpretation is another.
You bring up something interesting though. Would the ready availability of such Divinations retard the advancement of Forensic Sciene?
You bring up something interesting though. Would the ready availability of such Divinations retard the advancement of Forensic Sciene?All my players are fans of Cthulhu and Delta Green and use the forensic approach too.
I have no issues with it at all. Skill ranks in Herbalism, Alchemy and Knowledge (Whatever) are important and I think it encourages roleplay and different thinking.
Fingerprints? Sure alchemical smoke which adheres to the greasy print. Now go match them.
Blood? Sure alchemical test to distinguish between animal and human or elf and human.
Dried Blood? Again alchemical solution sprayed to act like luminol.To me its far less game breaking than Detect Evil/Zone of Truth and old school Know Alignment/Detect Lies. Getting clues is one thing, correct interpretation is another.
IMO, they wouldn't hinder the development of forensic techniques too much. Before the spells can really be useful, the authorities need to know who to question and what questions to ask. What I can see them hindering is the development of a lawyer's "courtroom" techniques, at least to some extent; although the ability to mislead by shadings of the literal truth might be developed to a fine degree.
You bring up something interesting though. Would the ready availability of such Divinations retard the advancement of Forensic Sciene?All my players are fans of Cthulhu and Delta Green and use the forensic approach too.
I have no issues with it at all. Skill ranks in Herbalism, Alchemy and Knowledge (Whatever) are important and I think it encourages roleplay and different thinking.
Fingerprints? Sure alchemical smoke which adheres to the greasy print. Now go match them.
Blood? Sure alchemical test to distinguish between animal and human or elf and human.
Dried Blood? Again alchemical solution sprayed to act like luminol.To me its far less game breaking than Detect Evil/Zone of Truth and old school Know Alignment/Detect Lies. Getting clues is one thing, correct interpretation is another.
Both as a player and GM, and by extension my players, find it more satisfying to "work it out" rather than cast a spell and get the answer. Divinations can be twisted or magically cloaked. If BBEG is used to investigation through magic that is what he is going to cover not the mundane. Nescessity is the mother of invention so if BBEG is wearing a lead foil beenie then mundane detection methods are better deployed.
Perhaps its down to the development of the game from 1ed. As a GM I had to come up with non-cheat methods to stop plots from derailing from the off. Know Alignment being the killer everytime.I prefer a low magic style of play so ESP Thought Police isn't a problem.