I have a feeling I'm about to open a real can of worms with this question. (This might not even be the correct forum for this question; please move it if it belongs elsewhere.)
I'm building a wuxia-style monk for a new PF campaign. I see this guy as on the path to enlightenment, with an emphasis on personal and "spiritual" discovery. I'd like him to take a vow of poverty primarily for role-playing purposes (empty-handed attacks, no magic items, etc.), though as we all know, the math in 3.x/PF assumes a certain number of stat/defense-boosting magic items. I want a character that's both math/combat viable *and* fun to role-play.
Enter Vow of Poverty (from the BoED). Yes, I know it's generally (or perhaps universally) accepted to be stupidly powerful and broken. Still, it's a mechanical way to make up for a mechanical deficiency regarding a role-playing choice.
I've spoken with my DM about the feats (Sacred Vow and then Vow of Poverty). She's willing to work with me but feels that, as written, it's too powerful. She didn't have any specific suggestions as to how to tone it down yet still balance the "loss" of two feats and all magic items. I also don't have any specific ideas.
So, given years of (negative) feedback on this optional feat, how would you go about making it fair and balanced, yet still desirable for a player to take?
Most of the negative feedback comes from groups and dms that dont allow much leeway in terms of magic items. That is the first thing people need if they are going to offer suggestions. We need to know what it is replacing.
1. How close the wealth by level chart is your group under this dm particularly at mid to high levels?
2. How is treasure/rewards determined? Randomly? Strict following of a published adventure? Customized to the PCs?
3. Can this treasure be readily exchanged/sold/bartered/crafted for new magic items of the player's designs?
If the answers are:
1 Close or above
2 Customized to PCs OR 3. Yes
Then VoP is not overpowered, it just follows a different power curve then magic items it replaces. If those are not the answers, then adjustments need to be made.
Most of the negative feedback comes from groups and dms that dont allow much leeway in terms of magic items. That is the first thing people need if they are going to offer suggestions. We need to know what it is replacing.
1. How close the wealth by level chart is your group under this dm particularly at mid to high levels?
2. How is treasure/rewards determined? Randomly? Strict following of a published adventure? Customized to the PCs?
3. Can this treasure be readily exchanged/sold/bartered/crafted for new magic items of the player's designs?
If the answers are:
1 Close or above
2 Customized to PCs OR 3. Yes
Then VoP is not overpowered, it just follows a different power curve then magic items it replaces. If those are not the answers, then adjustments need to be made.
I don't know exactly how treasure will be determined. It's been a while since our group played D&D (and, at the time, I was the DM). More recently this friend was the Storyteller for a Hunter-based WoD game (and WoD notoriously de-emphasizes equipment).
I'm no expert on VoP, but it seems like you could base it off of the wealth by level chart.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html
You can have 25% of your wealth for a given level, then the other 75% is automatically evenly divided to buy a theoretical Ring of Protection, Cloak of Resistance, Amulet of Natural Armor, and magic enhancement to your attacks. That last enhancement is another thread or two in itself...
You could still wear items in those slots, and use weapons, but you have a deflection bonus, a NA bonus, resistance bonus, and enhancemnt bonus to unarmed strikes, which won't stack. You would also be required to donate 75% of your wealth to a worthy cause.
I don't know exactly how treasure will be determined. It's been a while since our group played D&D (and, at the time, I was the DM). More recently this friend was the Storyteller for a Hunter-based WoD game (and WoD notoriously de-emphasizes equipment).
Well your dm said she would work with you on it right? Ask her. Say in order to provide good suggestions on how to adjust it you need to know what you are going to be replacing.
That said are you open to other ideas? I mean is your goal here to work with vow of poverty or is it to make it so you can have a character with limited reliance on gear. Because there have been some pretty good homebrew ideas floating around on replacing magic items.
That said are you open to other ideas? I mean is your goal here to work with vow of poverty or is it to make it so you can have a character with limited reliance on gear. Because there have been some pretty good homebrew ideas floating around on replacing magic items.
Ultimately, it's not about the VoP feat (or the associated bonus--though big numbers are always fun). I'd just like a way to mechanically balance a role-playing decision: the decision the eschew all material possessions (as per the VoP feat description). This is especially important for a monk, as both 3.x and PF monks are typically highly gear-reliant.
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VoP is one of those things that is either stupidly overpowered or marvelously underwhelming, depending entirely of the campaign. The 3.5 VoP druid was the biggest offender, as they lost all of the powers of their magic items when they wildshaped, but would keep all of their VoP granted stuff. Take a Fighter, however, and it is much different.
The feat (hell, the entire book) has been banned from our table as it seems like so much more trouble than it's worth. Of course, I played in a low-magic item campaign next to two VoP monks and a VoP Druid while I had to scrounge around through the scraps the DM saw fit to throw at the rest of the group, while 3 whole shares of magic items got donated to the various churches of Faerun... *grumblegrumble*
The feat (hell, the entire book) has been banned from our table as it seems like so much more trouble than it's worth. Of course, I played in a low-magic item campaign next to two VoP monks and a VoP Druid while I had to scrounge around through the scraps the DM saw fit to throw at the rest of the group, while 3 whole shares of magic items got donated to the various churches of Faerun... *grumblegrumble*
Okay, let's toss out VoP (I see this character as LN anyway). How would you mechanically address voluntary poverty? Would you just make the character "suffer" with lower AB, AC, saves, etc.?
Well a while back there was a discussion about removing magic items or the bulk of them from the game. One of my favorite Ideas that came from this is:
My suggestion would be to drop all the items that provide flat enhancements to statistics armor bonus, shield bonus, natural armor, attacks/damage, and saves, replacing them with the following:
Heroic Distinctions
True heroes are far from static, realizing great power as they come into their own. Starting at 3rd level, each character gains one heroic distinction every level. Unless otherwise noted, a character cannot select an individual distinction more than once.Defensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.
Improved Defensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Greater Defensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Improved Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Penultimate Defensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Perfect Defensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Offensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon.
Improved Offensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Greater Offensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Penultimate Offensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Perfect Offensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Lucky: The character receives a +1 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves.
Blessed: The character receives a +3 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves. A character must be at least 7th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.
Exalted: The character receives a +5 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves. A character must be at least 13th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.
Hardened: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +1. A character must be at least 6th level before selecting this distinction.
Grizzled: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +3. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Hardened distinction before selecting this distinction.
Iron Skinned: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +5. A character must be at least 14th level and have the Grizzled distinction before selecting this distinction.
Strong: The character receives a +2 training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Dextrous: The character receives a +2 training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Hearty: The character receives a +2 training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Intelligent: The character receives a +2 training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Wise: The character receives a +2 training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Charismatic: The character receives a +2 training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Mighty: +4 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Strong distinction before selecting this distinction.
Adroit: +4 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Dextrous distinction before selecting this distinction.
Unyielding: +4 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Hearty distinction before selecting this distinction.
Inspired: +4 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Intelligent distinction before selecting this distinction.
Attuned: +4 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Wise distinction before selecting this distinction.
Majestic: +4 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Charismatic distinction before selecting this distinction.
Herculean: +6 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Mighty distinction before selecting this distinction.
Alacritous: +6 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Adroit distinction before selecting this distinction.
Titanic: +6 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Unyielding distinction before selecting this distinction.
Brilliant: +6 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Inspired distinction before selecting this distinction.
Enlightened: +6 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Attuned distinction before selecting this distinction.
Awe Inspiring: +6 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Majestic distinction before selecting this distinction.
For balance reasons it would probably be wise to remove the spells that provide the equivalent enhancements, or at least prevent them from stacking (as they normally wouldn't stack with a permanent enhancement from an item).
This doesn't quite cover everything, I left out Deflection bonuses from items like a Rings of protection, as well as all the "flavor" bonuses like flaming, keen, etc.
For a completely no-magic setting, I'd suggest removing those as well, changing it to two distinctions per level, and writing up the "flavor" items using these as a guideline.
Since you would be dropping all magic items I suggest A Enhancment bonuses dont stack with training bonuses (just to prevent the stacking problem mentioned) and adding in the remaining items for deflection bonuses (use the natural armor bonuses as a guideline). And if you want things like flamming/shocking/whathaveyou work with your dm to add them in. I also suggest the 2 per level starting at 3 since you are forgoing ALL wealth, and just just flat numeric items.
Edit: Also since you are going monk, make defensive training not based off armor or shield but off your monk AC bonus.
I'm using an Advantage Point system in my Legacy of Fire campaign that basically takes the Wealth By Level numbers and turns this into a set number of points the characters get each level to spend on basic mechanical enhancements that are generally assumed at higher levels. The end result should be characters that have the same "numbers" as equipped characters of the same level, but without having random cloaks, rings, amulets, etc. required to get there. Characters may still possess magic items or have other wealth, paying 1 AP per 1,000 gp value. Certain advantages require GM approval (like buying a spell-like ability or feat) and my specific intention is to limit, for example the enhancement bonus on weapons and armor and rather make such items have different properties.
On the flip side, I'm one of those few that has never had a problem with Vow of Poverty. Played properly, both RP and mechanics wise and without intentionally trying to "break" the game, it is balanced against characters of similar level with average wealth. I actually did a level-by-level breakdown of the vow's benefits, assigning equivalent GP values to each, and came out roughly equal (sometimes a little over, sometimes a little under). The lack of viable ranged attacks for a non-caster actually makes the vow very difficult in some encounters.
Okay, let's toss out VoP (I see this character as LN anyway). How would you mechanically address voluntary poverty? Would you just make the character "suffer" with lower AB, AC, saves, etc.?
Some of the core ideas of VoP are still good. Instead of using the feat, try this: let the character purchase the abilities he wants that happen to match up with the feat. Treat them as magic items, but say they're gifts from the gods for his sacrifice of worldly possessions. Make them all some sort of supernatural abilities. In exchange, if he retains too much worldly wealth, the bonuses fade away. If he's really naughty, maybe smack him with the effects of a geas too. But otherwise give him the bonuses (except the bonus exalted feats). Pathfinder still assumes you have level-appropriate gear, so depriving a person of that stuff will eventually hurt.
These are some great suggestions. I'll be steering my DM toward this thread tonight. I'm especially intrigued by your idea, Lathiira. We'll have to see what she says.
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Well, working from scratch I would probably have to define it as a feat much like VoP, but less so. The thing that got me the most about VoP was that it gave you bonus exalted feats, which meant that any character that took VoP was ultimately going to have every exalted feat in the freaking book.
So, first thing- take out the bonus feats. A feat should never give you more feats. It's counter-intuitive.
Okay, let's toss out VoP (I see this character as LN anyway). How would you mechanically address voluntary poverty? Would you just make the character "suffer" with lower AB, AC, saves, etc.?
One idea (which you'd need to talk over with your GM) is to take item creation feats, and "enchant" yourself. Scribe tattoo or something like that. You should probably pay a premium (x1.5 or x2 cost) as you can't be disarmed. You "pay" the creation fees in rare incense, offering to your god(s), inks, etc.
You don't have any objects, but get the benefits of magic items. Without having to rebalance everything or be gimped.
Some of the core ideas of VoP are still good. Instead of using the feat, try this: let the character purchase the abilities he wants that happen to match up with the feat. Treat them as magic items, but say they're gifts from the gods for his sacrifice of worldly possessions. Make them all some sort of supernatural abilities. In exchange, if he retains too much worldly wealth, the bonuses fade away. If he's really naughty, maybe smack him with the effects of a geas too. But otherwise give him the bonuses (except the bonus exalted feats). Pathfinder still assumes you have level-appropriate gear, so depriving a person of that stuff will eventually hurt.
On a similar note, you could run an account of "shadow" wealth. All value in your PC's share of the treasure that gets donated to worthy causes gets tracked in an account that you use to purchase benefits as if buying up the most closely related magic items. Want +4 to Strength? Mark 16,000 gp worth of that account off in order to have a supernatural power that adds to your strength just as if you had purchased a belt of giant strength +4. Want +2 to your AC via a natural armor bonus? Mark off 4000 gp as if buying an amulet of natural armor +2. Basically, just act like you would with another character but the stuff is inherent and supernatural rather than magical gear.
With this system, you manage to keep your new abilities reasonably on par with the rest of the PCs no matter how much (or little) filthy lucre the DM gives out. It's all based on what your PC's share would be in the actual game not the pre-planned distribution set out in the VoP feat.
Some of the core ideas of VoP are still good. Instead of using the feat, try this: let the character purchase the abilities he wants that happen to match up with the feat. Treat them as magic items, but say they're gifts from the gods for his sacrifice of worldly possessions. Make them all some sort of supernatural abilities. In exchange, if he retains too much worldly wealth, the bonuses fade away. If he's really naughty, maybe smack him with the effects of a geas too. But otherwise give him the bonuses (except the bonus exalted feats). Pathfinder still assumes you have level-appropriate gear, so depriving a person of that stuff will eventually hurt.
I would add that you could set up a "shadow" account of money that your character would have had if he had not been donating it all for his VoP. Then use that amount to budget your ability/benefit purchases as if buying the most similar magic item. That way, no matter how much or little filthy lucre your DM gives out, your added abilities are always reasonably on par with the rest of the PCs.
I would add that you could set up a "shadow" account of money that your character would have had if he had not been donating it all for his VoP. Then use that amount to budget your ability/benefit purchases as if buying the most similar magic item. That way, no matter how much or little filthy lucre your DM gives out, your added abilities are always reasonably on par with the rest of the PCs.
Some of the core ideas of VoP are still good. Instead of using the feat, try this: let the character purchase the abilities he wants that happen to match up with the feat. Treat them as magic items, but say they're gifts from the gods for his sacrifice of worldly possessions. Make them all some sort of supernatural abilities. In exchange, if he retains too much worldly wealth, the bonuses fade away. If he's really naughty, maybe smack him with the effects of a geas too. But otherwise give him the bonuses (except the bonus exalted feats). Pathfinder still assumes you have level-appropriate gear, so depriving a person of that stuff will eventually hurt.
I was thinking of something like this exactly. Stop reading my mind, it isn't a nice place;p
The most broken aspect of VOP was the bonus exalted feat slots.
Remove the other exalted feats and VOP becomes playable as the abilities are mostly level restricted.
In low magic worlds a fighter might even take this to make up for no/few magical weapons.....
I always felt the Exalted Feats were the least impressive feature, especially if you were a Monk. The good feats get burned out VERY early, and many of the Monk-specific feats require high Cha...making the Monk even more MAD. The bulk of the stuff worth taking was more vows.