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FAQ Question: Does the AC Bonus from both Monk and Sacred Fist Warpriest, stack?
*PLEASE FAQ* - This certainly needs an answer asap!
Monk
AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
+
Sacred Fist Warpriest
AC Bonus (Su): A deity protects her sacred fist as long as he is unarmored and unencumbered. A sacred fist adds his Wisdom modifier (minimum 0) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a sacred fist gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the sacred fist is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
Against:
The arguments against, that I know of, are that they do not stack because they are from the same source: Wisdom; or they do not stack because of the same name; AC Bonus.
For:
The arguments for, that I know of, are that they are both Untyped bonuses, One is SU while the other is EX, No Parent Classes are involved, One is from the Monk class while the other is from the Warpriest Sacred Fist Archetype, one bonus comes from their Deity and one from their inner strength.
If you have any other reasons, please leave them below after clicking on the FAQ link.
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I don't know whether this comparison would help, hurt, or even matter, but I feel it is important. This is my own personal view, and does not relate or reflect anyone elses opinion.--v
I've created a long-run level 15 Comparison of Fighter vs SF Warpriest, before Feats, and the results/statistics are below(if it matters at all). The reason I compared it to a Fighter with a Sword and Shield is that I really feel they're a great baseline for comparison and by far the most original class:
I created a level 15 Str/Dex/Con Sword and Board Fighter(vanilla), and pitted his stats against a level 15 Str/Dex/Wisdom Unarmed Monk(vanilla)/SFWarpriest. This does not include ANY feats, but does include Basic Necessary Gear, Class Abilities, and Race.
I gave them the same items of:
Cloak of Resistance +5
Belt of Physical Perfection +6
Ring of Deflection +5
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Special for the Fighter:
A +5 Weapon.
Amulet of Natural Armor +5
Full Plate +5
Heavy Steel Shield +5
Special for the Monk/SFWarpriest:
Amulet of Might Fists +5
Headband of Wisdom +6
Attribute gains for the Fighter and Monk/SFWarpriest:
+3 Str
Races for Fighter and Monk/SFWarpriest:
Human with a +2 to Str
Overall Stats for Fighter:
Str: 27(18 base), Dex: 22(16 base), Con: 18(12 base), Int: 13, Wis: 10, Cha: 7
225 HP, AC 47, Touch 21, Flat 42, Fort 18, Ref 16, Will 10
Attack of 33; Damage undoubtedly better than Monk, CMB 23, CMD 44
Breakdown of Stats:
Str: 16 Base Str + 2 Racial + 3 Attribute Gain + 6 Enhancement(belt)
Dex: 16 Base Dex + 6 Enhancement(belt)
Con: 12 Base Con + 6 Enhancement(belt)
HP: HD10+Con(4) -> 14 x 15 levels = 210 + 15 FCHPS = 225
AC 47: Base 10, Full Plate +5(14), Heavy Steel Shield +5(7), Amulet of Natural Armor +5(5), Ring of Deflection +5(5), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier(1), Dex of 22(5 Max)
Touch 21: Base 10, Dex of 22(5 Max), Ring of Deflection +5(5), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier(1)
Flat 42: Base 10, Full Plate +5(14), Heavy Steel Shield +5(7), Amulet of Natural Armor +5(5), Ring of Deflection +5(5), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier(1)
Fort 18: Base 9, Cloak of Resistance +5(5), Con 18(4)
Ref 16: Base 5, Cloak of Resistance +5(5), Dex 22(6)
Will 10: Base 5, Cloak of Resistance +5(5)
Melee Attack 33: BAB 15, Weapon +5, Weapon Specialization +5
Damage: Win
CMB 23: BAB 15, Str 27(8)
CMD 44: Base 10, BAB 15, Dodge and Deflect(5), Str 27+Dex 22(14)
Overall Stats for Monk/SFWarpriest:
Str: 27(18 base), Dex: 18(12 base), Con: 18(12 base), Int: 10, Wis: 22(16 base), Cha: 7
195 HP, AC 40, Touch 32, Flat 36, Fort 20, Ref 16, Will 22
Attack of 23; Damage undoubtedly worse than Fighter, CMB 18, CMD 37
Breakdown of Stats for Monk/SFWarpriest:
Str: 16 Base Str + 2 Racial + 3 Attribute Gain + 6 Enhancement(belt)
Dex: 12 Base Dex + 6 Enhancement(belt)
Con: 12 Base Con + 6 Enhancement(belt)
Wis: 12 Base Wis + 6 Enhancement(headband)
HP: HD8+Con(4) -> 14 x 15 levels = 210 + 15 FCHPS = 195
AC 40: Base 10, AC Bonus(Monk)(6), AC Bonus(SFWarpriest)(6), Ring of Deflection +5(5), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier(1), Dex of 18(4), Bracers of Armor +8(8)
Touch 32: Base 10, Dex of 18(4), Ring of Deflection +5(5), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier(1), AC Bonus(Monk)(6), AC Bonus(SFWarpriest)(6)
Flat 36: Base 10, AC Bonus(Monk)(6), AC Bonus(SFWarpriest)(6), Ring of Deflection +5(5), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier(1), Bracers of Armor +8(8)
Fort 20: Base 11, Cloak of Resistance +5(5), Con 18(4)
Ref 16: Base 7, Cloak of Resistance +5(5), Dex 18(4)
Will 22: Base 11, Cloak of Resistance +5(5), Wis 22(6)
Melee Attack 23: BAB 10, AoMF +5
Damage: Lose
CMB 18: BAB 10, Str 27(8)
CMD 37: Base 10, BAB 10, Dodge and Deflect(5), Str 27+Dex 18(12)
Advantages of Fighter vs Monk/SFWarpriest beyond Stats:
Damage
Attack
Feat Choices and Number of Feats
AC/Flat
Versatility between Ranged and Melee
Can Multiclass for Bonus Feats/Styles(like MoMS Monk for Evasion and Styles)
LOTS of Feats
Weapon Versatility
Bypassing DR
+4 Will vs Fear
Advantages of Monk/SFWarpriest beyond Stats:
Cleric Spells and Domains(1 Minor 1 Major)
Touch AC
Will Save
Evasion or Blessed Fortitude + Miraculous Fortitude
MOMS for Styles
Free Two-Weapon Fighting(Flurry of Blows really)
Low-End Ki Pool for a few effects
+2 Saves vs Enchantment
Fervor
Channel Energy
There is definitely the variable of the Monk/SFWarpriest using Monk Weapons instead of Unarmed, which would keep them at the same Attack(with better enchantments!) but then they could acquire an Amulet of Natural Armor; Or a Fighter going with a 2H for even more damage, and giving up his +7 Shield bonus(and enchantments on the shield). There is most certainly a wide variety and fairly big variable in Feats as well.
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James Jacobs has posted extensively on this; you don't get to double-count stat bonuses.
See here, here, and here for examples.
So, no, they don't stack.
I'd also like to point out that a) Paizo strongly discourages people from creating threads specifically to generate FAQ support, and b) in light of the existing posts, you're unlikely to get a formal response no matter how many people click the button.
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You should just come join This FAQ. We have over 180 hits, and this will answer many many other questions as well.
Without reading the entire original post, I concur with Orfamay Quest, you don't get to double-count stat bonuses. If I had enough time to dig, I could certainly find other developer commentary that agrees with James Jacobs statements.
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You should just come join This FAQ. We have over 180 hits, and this will answer many many other questions as well.
I certainly did! I made sure to FAQ this page. ^_^
Ring of Protection does not stack with the Warpriest ability...both are deflection bonuses.
As far as monk and warpriest ability...though normally you can't double dip on the same stat, in this case they're providing different benefits. One is an untyped AC bonus and the other is a deflection bonus, so I'd lean towards saying that would work IMO.
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There's also this one (though only 25 hits so far) that asks the same specific question as the OP here does.
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There's also this one (though only 25 hits so far) that asks the same specific question as the OP here does.
Thanks Nefreet! I made sure to FAQ this one as well :D
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I commend you on the effort you put into your OP. That is a substantial wall of text. When you decide to create another FAQ request in the future, may I make a suggedtion? Also add in links to prior discussions on the matter.
This will have several benefits:
1) you may find that an FAQ thread already exists, and save yourself the trouble of creating a new one from scratch.
2) perhaps an answer was already given by a Designer, and it was simply buried in text.
3) including several links to prior discussions will show that your question really is a "frequently asked question".
4) it saves other people from dredging through threads to read past arguments, and possibly eliminates faulty arguments before they can begin again.
But other than that, good job!
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James Jacobs has posted extensively on this; you don't get to double-count stat bonuses.
See here, here, and here for examples.
So, no, they don't stack.
I'd also like to point out that a) Paizo strongly discourages people from creating threads specifically to generate FAQ support, and b) in light of the existing posts, you're unlikely to get a formal response no matter how many people click the button.
Thank you for the Links, Orfamay Quest.
I asked James Jacobs while I was at it, and this is the response he gave me. Unfortunately, this doesn't answer my question after he followed it up with the bolded part.
Hello James!
I have question in regards to the AC Bonus' granted by a Monk and by the new ACG:Sacred Fist Archetype for the Warpriest.
Do they stack or do they overlap?
Monk
AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
Sacred Fist Warpriest
AC Bonus (Su): A deity protects her sacred fist as long as he is unarmored and unencumbered. A sacred fist adds his Wisdom modifier (minimum 0) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a sacred fist gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the sacred fist is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.I cannot imagine anything other than these bonuses overlapping. Stacking would be too ridiculous.
But that said, like all rulebook questions, it's better asked over there than here.
Located Here(you may have to scroll down a smidgen)
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I commend you on the effort you put into your OP. That is a substantial wall of text. When you decide to create another FAQ request in the future, may I make a suggedtion? Also add in links to prior discussions on the matter.
This will have several benefits:
1) you may find that an FAQ thread already exists, and save yourself the trouble of creating a new one from scratch.
2) perhaps an answer was already given by a Designer, and it was simply buried in text.
3) including several links to prior discussions will show that your question really is a "frequently asked question".
4) it saves other people from dredging through threads to read past arguments, and possibly eliminates faulty arguments before they can begin again.But other than that, good job!
Thank you again Nefreet! I will do more book-diving so that others do not have to in future FAQs. I heed all of your advice.
I think at this point everyone on the forums can stop quoting designers or quoting text that is either FOR or AGAINST this type of stacking. It's a dead horse, no more will come of it until we get an official response. (Though I fall under the "it stacks" camp for all the reasons dozens of other posters have said before me in other threads)
We honestly will not know until an FAQ happens.
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I read JJ's response and he basically admits "It would be OP" is the only reason he can come to for it not to stack. To be honest I would PERSONALLY say the same thing with many shot and rapid shot but that's not RAW. We're not here to determine what would be less absurd, we're here to determine what the RAW is.
Yep, that's the way I see it JJ's response. A feat that adds my CHA to all my saves "would be too ridiculous" too, but it made it into the last book. In pathfinder, just because it seems too good to be true, doesn't mean it's not RAW.
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I read JJ's response and he basically admits "It would be OP" is the only reason he can come to for it not to stack. To be honest I would PERSONALLY say the same thing with many shot and rapid shot but that's not RAW. We're not here to determine what would be less absurd, we're here to determine what the RAW is.
EDIT: Whenever people say things are OP consider the following.
In a world where casters shape reality with the snap of a finger...
In a world where haste produces more damage than any single marshal character...
In a world where Mirror Image provides more effective misses than +10 AC...
In a world where casters point their fingers at you and you turn to ash...Double wisdom to AC is our only hope.
I want mirror image as a Sacred Fist :( Ungh. Such a fantastic spell.
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I read JJ's response and he basically admits "It would be OP" is the only reason he can come to for it not to stack. To be honest I would PERSONALLY say the same thing with many shot and rapid shot but that's not RAW. We're not here to determine what would be less absurd, we're here to determine what the RAW is.Yep, that's the way I see it JJ's response. A feat that adds my CHA to all my saves "would be too ridiculous" too, but it made it into the last book. In pathfinder, just because it seems too good to be true, doesn't mean it's not RAW.In a world where Sacred Geometry exists...
In a world where Leadership exists...In a world where dazing spell exists...
In a world where Divine protection exists...
Bonus AC is gamebreaking.
I actually haven't played in a game I can remember where any of those other than dazing spell do exist. PFS and every home game I've been in recently banned them before the presses had cooled.
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I read JJ's response and he basically admits "It would be OP" is the only reason he can come to for it not to stack. To be honest I would PERSONALLY say the same thing with many shot and rapid shot but that's not RAW. We're not here to determine what would be less absurd, we're here to determine what the RAW is.Yep, that's the way I see it JJ's response. A feat that adds my CHA to all my saves "would be too ridiculous" too, but it made it into the last book. In pathfinder, just because it seems too good to be true, doesn't mean it's not RAW.In a world where Sacred Geometry exists...
In a world where Leadership exists...In a world where dazing spell exists...
In a world where Divine protection exists...
Bonus AC is gamebreaking.
You have to remember, it raises TOUCH AC. We wouldn't want casters to have to actually roll to hit with a spell do we? :P
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This is obviously about a lot more than just doubling up the bonus to AC.
It creates a precedent for everything related to it, some examples of which are given near the top of this thread.
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James Jacobs has posted extensively on this; you don't get to double-count stat bonuses.
See here, here, and here for examples.
So, no, they don't stack.
I'd also like to point out that a) Paizo strongly discourages people from creating threads specifically to generate FAQ support, and b) in light of the existing posts, you're unlikely to get a formal response no matter how many people click the button.
Why do people quoting JJ on this issue always neglect to include this one?
Why do people quoting JJ on this issue always neglect to include this one?James Jacobs has posted extensively on this; you don't get to double-count stat bonuses.
See here, here, and here for examples.
So, no, they don't stack.
I'd also like to point out that a) Paizo strongly discourages people from creating threads specifically to generate FAQ support, and b) in light of the existing posts, you're unlikely to get a formal response no matter how many people click the button.
LOL Yep, it's sort of a double standard. THIS bonus is just fine but this one that's adds the same way isn't...
Until it's FAQ'ed it's basically JJ just applying his personal home rules. He's gotten a fair number of things wrong (he's only human) and has no idea about the far reaching implications of some rulings. The SLA for Prereq ruling comes to mind.LOL Yep, it's sort of a double standard. THIS bonus is just fine but this one that's adds the same way isn't...Why do people quoting JJ on this issue always neglect to include this one?James Jacobs has posted extensively on this; you don't get to double-count stat bonuses.
See here, here, and here for examples.
So, no, they don't stack.
I'd also like to point out that a) Paizo strongly discourages people from creating threads specifically to generate FAQ support, and b) in light of the existing posts, you're unlikely to get a formal response no matter how many people click the button.
Oh yeah, it's totally JJ's rules. It's just that some people are taking them like they are carved on stone tablets...
And myself, I love the SLA ruling. It's been one of the few I've liked lately...
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Why do people quoting JJ on this issue always neglect to include this one?James Jacobs has posted extensively on this; you don't get to double-count stat bonuses.
See here, here, and here for examples.
So, no, they don't stack.
I'd also like to point out that a) Paizo strongly discourages people from creating threads specifically to generate FAQ support, and b) in light of the existing posts, you're unlikely to get a formal response no matter how many people click the button.
*facepalm*....
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All the more reason JJ's responses should not be taken as official.
Same conflict came up a few years ago. One month he said Thassilonian Specialists could take Wizard subschools, and another month he said they couldn't.
People kept quoting the answer they liked to support their argument, until I combined the two into one thread to get it resolved (turns out, no subschools).
This problem will also need a final answer. It can really go either way.
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All the more reason JJ's responses should not be taken as official.
Same conflict came up a few years ago. One month he said Thassilonian Specialists could take Wizard subschools, and another month he said they couldn't.
People kept quoting the answer they liked to support their argument, until I combined the two into one thread to get it resolved (turns out, no subschools).
This problem will also need a final answer. It can really go either way.
I agree.
Don't get me wrong, and most certainly No Disrespect to JJ, but his Rulings or Perceptions do not equal RAW. Even as he stated in my previous quote of him. I would agree that his perception helps when bringing stuff to the table in front of a DM when there are no clear RAW interpretations or FAQs, but that's as far as I would see it.
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I find these two responses rather important, but unfortunately neither of them necessarily account for RAW.
Response from Dale McCoy Jr(President of Jon Brazer Enterprises and Designer of Sacred Fist Archetype) 09/19/2014
"If a player in a game I was running asked me if they wanted to play a warpriest/monk, I'd allow the stacking. IMO, you are still giving up some class abilities of the monk when you are taking warpriest levels and the same is true with the reverse. This archetype allows them to harmonize well, in the same way that many PrCs allow for multiclass harmonization.
But that is how I would rule it at my table. I'm not sure how the people at Paizo will decide for PFS."
Response from James Jacobs(Creative Director) 09/10/2014
"I cannot imagine anything other than these bonuses overlapping. Stacking would be too ridiculous.
But that said, like all rulebook questions, it's better asked over there than here."
I find these two responses rather important, but unfortunately neither of them necessarily account for RAW.
Response from Dale McCoy Jr(President of Jon Brazer Enterprises and Designer of Sacred Fist Archetype) 09/19/2014
"If a player in a game I was running asked me if they wanted to play a warpriest/monk, I'd allow the stacking. IMO, you are still giving up some class abilities of the monk when you are taking warpriest levels and the same is true with the reverse. This archetype allows them to harmonize well, in the same way that many PrCs allow for multiclass harmonization.But that is how I would rule it at my table. I'm not sure how the people at Paizo will decide for PFS."
Response from James Jacobs(Creative Director) 09/10/2014
"I cannot imagine anything other than these bonuses overlapping. Stacking would be too ridiculous.But that said, like all rulebook questions, it's better asked over there than here."
Both classes add AC Bonus based on wisdom because both do not allow for armor. They are both very similar, though, yet slightly different. Wording in the English language is very important, so you must stick to RAW. Go exactly by how it is written.
A sacred fist adds his Wisdom modifier (minimum 0) to his AC and his CMD.
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD.
There is a similar situation about a Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight being like Invisibility. They are not one in the same. Invisibility adds +20 to your stealth check and grants concealment while Hide in Plain Sight requires dim light within 10ft as concealment to use Stealth without adding any additional bonuses to the stealth check. Invisibility is induced by either a spell or spell-like ability, which can be removed or countered with other spells. Hide in Plain Sight can only be countered by an opposed perception check or the removal of dim light currently granting concealment.
However, the monk and sacred fist abilities are extraordinary and supernatural abilities. Neither one can be debuffed or countered. They both directly add the PCs Wisdom modifier to the player's AC and CMD from two different sources. If you are not a believer that sources matter, please refer to Invisibility and Hide in Plain Sight above. The source determines if and how the ability can be removed/countered.
Bonuses from the same sources do not stack. This is to prevent making an overpowered character. As it stands in RAW, both the extraordinary ability and supernatural ability stack the Wisdom bonuses to AC, but both offer different and stackable AC bonuses every 4 levels up to a maximum of +5AC at level 20 in either class. The monk's additional AC is unwritten and the sacred fist's bonuses every 4 levels is added to deflection. The downside is you will still only have an additional +5 to AC with the combined unwritten and deflection bonuses between the two classes at level 20. Adding the Wisdom bonus twice to AC and CMD is like wearing Full Plate and Half Plate at the same time and adding the bonuses. Those two kinds of bonuses specifically add in the same spot, therefore they do not stack.
Trust me, the only reason why I am even posting is because earlier today I thought I had the brilliant idea of dipping into both solely for the purpose of high AC and this evening checking on things to see if it would actually work out. If either one of them said, "in addition" to the wisdom mod bonus only THEN would they stack.
For now, make a dwarf/gnome sacred fist/monk (master of many styles) so that you get to use multiple styles at once (Snapping Turtle Style + Earth Child Style + Monkey Style + Grabbing Style) while still retaining your Flurry of Blows thanks to Sacred Fist. Pick up the other Snapping Turtle feats to allow yourself to use grappled opponents as meat shields. Also pick up things like Jawbreaker so that you're adding more modifiers to attack rolls. Most of your class levels should be in MoMS to optimize your ki pool and amount of styles used at the same time. Bite off someone's ear in a grapple. Call it a day.
So I want to make sure you're saying that their wis bonus doesn't get added twice to their AC. because it doesn't because of the faq that came out yesterday.
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