Okay. The GM for one of my games has rendered invisibility useless for a wizard unless they happen to have maxed out stealth. How? Because invisibility only prevents detection from sight, anyone can hear you and pinpoint your square unless you beat their perception with an unmodified stealth roll.
When I brought up that the invis spell has that factored in already with the +40 standing still but only +20 when moving, he said that that has to do with visual clues being given away not a penalty due to noise.
So now my greater invis is simply 50% miss chance for melee. Casters can lightning bolt me all day long. Huz - frikkin - zah!
Edit: Forgot to ask my question. :P So is there anything RAW I can use in my defense or is his call a legit interpretation?
Edit2: Dang it! I was sure I posted this in the rules forum.
It makes no mention in the spell that the penalty is just for sight based perception checks. The DC is increased by +20. The +40 is if you are remaining stationary and not taking actions. You get to make a stealth check as part of your move action, and its an opposed check. A 30 is really not hard to get to though for a perception check, so you really should points into it anyway.
The section on invisibility on page 563 of the core book makes it pretty damn clear.
While they can't be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.
Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision...
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Perception check...
There are a number of modifiers that can be a pplied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.
Using Stealth Stealth check +20
It clearly uses the words "notice a presence" and "pinpoint a location" using hearing, smell, and touch- it's NOT a DC to see the target. An invisible creature can't be seen- period.
Right, and with a trivial perception check you can pinpoint the square an invisible wizard is in and target that square with 90% of the spells in the game without any penalty.
I just figure in battle it shouldn't be such an easy task to locate even an unskilled invisible opponent from across the room.
And since when was a DC 40 perception check (before modifers) to pinpoint an invisible wizard's location (who is untrained in stealth) trivial?
And since when was a DC 40 perception check (before modifers) to pinpoint an invisible wizard's location (who is untrained in stealth) trivial?
Wow. Misread your previous post. Yeah, that is pretty clear. Here's hoping he'll listen to reason.
Right, and with a trivial perception check you can pinpoint the square an invisible wizard is in and target that square with 90% of the spells in the game without any penalty.
I just figure in battle it shouldn't be such an easy task to locate even an unskilled invisible opponent from across the room.
A few points
Stealth can be used untrained so the DC is d20+20+dex
Not impossible but not easy DC.In battle there should be additonal +5 for terrible conditions and additional +5 if in melee since you are being distracted which brings the DC up to d20+30+dex.
While it is not spelled out in the rules, I would state pinpintng an invisible person is a search which requires a move action.
The thing was, he wasn't adding the +20 to the check. He was claiming that since the spell doesn't say it dampers sound that someone could pinpoint your square with a listen based perception check against your straight d20+stealth modifier.
The thing was, he wasn't adding the +20 to the check. He was claiming that since the spell doesn't say it dampers sound that someone could pinpoint your square with a listen based perception check against your straight d20+stealth modifier.Right, and with a trivial perception check you can pinpoint the square an invisible wizard is in and target that square with 90% of the spells in the game without any penalty.
I just figure in battle it shouldn't be such an easy task to locate even an unskilled invisible opponent from across the room.
A few points
Stealth can be used untrained so the DC is d20+20+dex
Not impossible but not easy DC.In battle there should be additonal +5 for terrible conditions and additional +5 if in melee since you are being distracted which brings the DC up to d20+30+dex.
While it is not spelled out in the rules, I would state pinpintng an invisible person is a search which requires a move action.
You need to inform him that "Move Silently" and "Listen" are relics of the past and that the spell specifically states that it gives you a +20 to "Stealth" checks. That does include "Listen based perception checks"
I still noticed something weird related to this. When stealthing, you try to move silently and unseen. However, when you become invisible, you gain a +20 to Stealth.
Let's say some guy wants to infiltrate a castle at night. He becomes invisible and gains +20 to Stealth. The odd thing is, he also becomes more silent, since Stealth now covers being silent AND hiding. How's that possible? Since when did becoming invisible made you more silent?
I still noticed something weird related to this. When stealthing, you try to move silently and unseen. However, when you become invisible, you gain a +20 to Stealth.
Let's say some guy wants to infiltrate a castle at night. He becomes invisible and gains +20 to Stealth. The odd thing is, he also becomes more silent, since Stealth now covers being silent AND hiding. How's that possible? Since when did becoming invisible made you more silent?
It's one of those weird things... if you can see something, you're more likely to hear it. If you can't see something, you're more likely to not hear it.
It's like... I'm freaking blind without my glasses. I can't quite describe it, but when I take them off, suddenly EVERYTHING is less clear, hearing included. And when I put them back on everything is normal again.
Imagine hearing something, just a small shuffle, and look back and see nothing. Would you think you A.) really heard something and investigate further even though you can't see anything, or B.) see nothing and shrug your shoulders that your mind is playing tricks on you again. Since there's nothing there most of the time for a guard, he'll probably go with B.
Seems perfectly ok to me.
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I still noticed something weird related to this. When stealthing, you try to move silently and unseen. However, when you become invisible, you gain a +20 to Stealth.
Let's say some guy wants to infiltrate a castle at night. He becomes invisible and gains +20 to Stealth. The odd thing is, he also becomes more silent, since Stealth now covers being silent AND hiding. How's that possible? Since when did becoming invisible made you more silent?
It doesn't but honestly it plays upon psychology as well.
You hear a noise and look around. No one there. You look again to be sure and nope you don't see anyone. "Must be the wind," you say and go back to drinking your coffee and waiting for your shift to end.
IF someone were to go and attack every time they hear a noise, they would likely wear themselves out and be absolutely worthless as a guard. Think about it...
You hear a noise and look around. No one there. You think about it for a moment and decide it just MUST be someone invisible. You launch into a full scale frenzied attack, slashing and hacking at every cubic inch of space. You keep missing but you just know there MUST be someone there because you heard a noise. You pull out your extra sword and go Ginsu and feverishly attack the empty air in the room. Finally exhausted, your heart pounding to bursting, you collapse on the floor and pass out from the exertion. Then the Thief (I mean Rogue... ahem!), that had been watching through the skylight slips into the room in full view, very happy she learned to throw her voice...
Makes perfect sense to me. We rely upon our sense of sight FAR more than sound.
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See, I got into this argument with one of my players, but not over the same thing.
He was playing a warlock, so he was always invisible. Then, he went on to try and break into a house. When he opened the window, I told him to make a stealth check to see how much noise opening the window made... And he told me he rolled a 38 (or something like that). I asked how that was possible, and he said because invisibility gives a +20 to stealth. I ruled that invisibility doesn't give you any bonus to stealth if the people in question wouldn't be able to see you anyways (IE. you're on the other side of a door making noise). He was a bit angry, but it didn't make sense to me that invisibility would give you a bonus when trying to be quiet, as it says that you can still be located by sound. As for the in-combat applications, I don't change anything about it because everyone relies on vision anyways (and if they don't, they usually have blind-sight so it's a non-issue).
I still noticed something weird related to this. When stealthing, you try to move silently and unseen. However, when you become invisible, you gain a +20 to Stealth.
Let's say some guy wants to infiltrate a castle at night. He becomes invisible and gains +20 to Stealth. The odd thing is, he also becomes more silent, since Stealth now covers being silent AND hiding. How's that possible? Since when did becoming invisible made you more silent?
I have two explanations for this.
1. If you are already invisible, you don't need to worry about keeping yourself hidden. That means I can put more focus into simply keeping quiet. If I wasn't invisible, I may have to be running, jumping, and dodging in order to stay out of a guard's view. But if I am invisible, I can take my time moving slowly- reducing the sound I am likely to make.
2. Invisibility is meant to deal with those who have sight as their main sense. That's why invisibility is ineffectual against creatures with scent or blind-sight. While human's do have decent hearing and smell, they put much more faith and reliance in their sense of sight. Once again, let's say you are trying to sneak around that guard's back. If you make a little bit of a noise, he will turn and look. Seeing absolutely nothing when he looks right at you, he will probably just assume it was the wind, or maybe just the old castle making noises itself. You can then carry on your merry little way.
With this interpretation the ruling makes plenty of sense to me.
See, I got into this argument with one of my players, but not over the same thing.
He was playing a warlock, so he was always invisible. Then, he went on to try and break into a house. When he opened the window, I told him to make a stealth check to see how much noise opening the window made... And he told me he rolled a 38 (or something like that). I asked how that was possible, and he said because invisibility gives a +20 to stealth. I ruled that invisibility doesn't give you any bonus to stealth if the people in question wouldn't be able to see you anyways (IE. you're on the other side of a door making noise). He was a bit angry, but it didn't make sense to me that invisibility would give you a bonus when trying to be quiet, as it says that you can still be located by sound. As for the in-combat applications, I don't change anything about it because everyone relies on vision anyways (and if they don't, they usually have blind-sight so it's a non-issue).
I think your ruling here is quite reasonable. You're specifically setting up a situation where all that applies is the hearing portion of Perception. And it's a good way to determine, for example, if the guardsman down the hall hears anything going on and comes to investigate (in which case, the next stealth check should probably incorporate the +20 for the spell).
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See, I got into this argument with one of my players, but not over the same thing.
He was playing a warlock, so he was always invisible. Then, he went on to try and break into a house. When he opened the window, I told him to make a stealth check to see how much noise opening the window made... And he told me he rolled a 38 (or something like that). I asked how that was possible, and he said because invisibility gives a +20 to stealth. I ruled that invisibility doesn't give you any bonus to stealth if the people in question wouldn't be able to see you anyways (IE. you're on the other side of a door making noise). He was a bit angry, but it didn't make sense to me that invisibility would give you a bonus when trying to be quiet, as it says that you can still be located by sound. As for the in-combat applications, I don't change anything about it because everyone relies on vision anyways (and if they don't, they usually have blind-sight so it's a non-issue).
See THAT is why we have GMs and not just play WoW! In THIS situation you are absolutely correct I believe.
BTW in this case, the raised window would be out the ordinary and THAT would raise some concerns as well (adding some modifier to the situation) in addition to the noise (assuming the bad guy could see the window being or having been raised).
"They're more like GUIDLINES," should be our motto! lol
Thanks a lot for answering my question. I had already thought of the psychological aspect of that rule, but I thought something wasn't right with it after all. Still, you guys proved me wrong. It does sound perfectly alright.