Dragon CR vs. size

[Zaister]

Dragon CRs have changed in Pathfinder. It is general knowlege that in 3.5, dragons were rated lower CRs than they should have been - a design decision that Paizo has decided to abandon. However the actual CRs in the Pathfinder Bestiary confuse me.

For example take a dragon like Arkrhyst from Pathfinder #5, "Sins of the Saviors". He is a standard 3.5 old white dragon with a CR of 15, just like the 3.5 SRD says. Assuming now the his is actually underrated, I would assume his actual CR should be somewhere around 16, maybe 17.

Now I'm comparing this to an old white dragon from the Pathfinder Bestiary. The base CR for white dragons is 2, and an old dragon gets +11 to this, for a total of 13. Now what gives? This is even less than in 3.5, and when I build the statblock I find that the Pathfinder old white dragon is indeed significantly weaker than the 3.5 old white dragon: for example 17 HD vs. 24 HD.

Why is that? What was the design decision to tone down dragons in relation to their age category?

And if one were to convert the Arkrhyst encounter to the Pathfinder RPG, would I use the CR 13 old white dragon, or rather a dragon with CR 15 as the encounter originally indicated (this would make him ancient), or even a higher CR (e.g. a CR 16 wyrm) to compensate for the original underrating? What do you think?

Maybe one of the designers could even say something about this, that would be cool.

[Joey Virtue]

You should make him at least the CR of the orginal if not higher

[azhrei_fje]

But also keep in mind that PF is slightly higher powered than 3.5, so a CR15 encounter in 3.5 would be about a CR14 encounter in PF. So yes, a CR13 is perhaps a bit low. It's easy to fix to give him a treasure hoard with equipment that he can use! Staves are a particularly good choice since they can have only a few charges in them so the party doesn't immediately have access to a fully charged staff.

[Varthanna]

azhrei_fje wrote:

But also keep in mind that PF is slightly higher powered than 3.5, so a CR15 encounter in 3.5 would be about a CR14 encounter in PF. So yes, a CR13 is perhaps a bit low. It's easy to fix to give him a treasure hoard with equipment that he can use! Staves are a particularly good choice since they can have only a few charges in them so the party doesn't immediately have access to a fully charged staff.

The logic of the design escapes me, but as to the specific encounter at hand, I'd take the new CR 13 old white dragon and slap some class levels on him until he's CR 15. This gives him the opportunity to be more unique and individualized, which always adds to an encounter.

[Charles Scholz]

Does anyone know the actuall sizes of dragons? The article on dragons does not say.
There are 2 size catagories.
Here are the progressions from the stat block entries in the Bestiary.

Base is Tiny
Wyrmling .......Tiny
Very young
Young ..........Medium
Juvenile
Young adult
Adult ..........Large
Mature adult
Old
Very old
Ancient ........Huge
Wyrm
Great wyrm

Base is Small
Wyrmling .......Small
Very young
Young ..........Large
Juvenile
Young adult
Adult ..........Huge
Mature adult
Old
Very old
Ancient ........Gargantuan
Wyrm
Great wyrm

While I can figure out a couple of the other sizes, the rest are unknown. At which age does a dragon change size.

Also, does a dragon with a tiny wymling ever become colossal?

It would have been nice if Paizo would have given different ages for them instead of the same base plus 3 for each dragon entry.

[Charles Scholz]

I'm blind. Found my answer.