Animal Growth / Polymorph "Size Increase"

[kroarty]

Polymorph spells cause you to take on the form of another creature. Animal Growth says "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

Note: I am aware Polymorph spells cannot overlap; Animal Growth is not Polymorph subschool.

1: Confirm that the polymorph spells do indeed count as a "size increase", for purposes of stacking with Animal growth (Obviously, I'm not referring to "Enlarge" spells for this purpose).

2: Confirm that if Animal Growth does not increase your size, you thus do not gain any of the other bonuses it confers.

3: If so, could I polymorph into something larger, then use Animal Growth to *supercede*, though not stack with, the ability score bonuses from polymorph?

3: Confirm that I *can* use a polymorph spell that sets me at a size equal or lower than my usual, then stack it with animal growth completely.

I'm trying to turn a Transmuter Wizard into a pet class. Imp. Familiar to get a small earth ele with base 16 str; give it a belt for more, turn it into a dragon, turn yourself into a dragon, and eat faces (Gets kinda wonky, because you need to have MAX con for the familiar to have enough HP.) Point is, the "personal as touch" rule for familiars opens up all kinds of possibilities-and with them, weird questions.

[TLO3]

kroarty wrote:

Polymorph spells cause you to take on the form of another creature. Animal Growth says "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

*snip*

Hmm... I'm interested in this question for the more mundane use of possibly casting animal growth on a wild shaped druid.

[kroarty]

Unfortunately, I believe that won't work because Polymorph never claims to change your CREATURE TYPE; thus, you're not a valid target for Animal Growth. Familiars, however, are specifically stated to be valid targets REGARDLESS of their creature type.

[hogarth]

Like kroarty says, most druids are not animals and therefore cannot benefit from Animal Growth. Likewise, earth elementals are not animals either.

However, it would be possible to cast Polymorph on a true animal (like a druid's animal companion) followed by Animal Growth. In that case, I'm not sure what I would do. Maybe I'd rule that both spells apply to the animal's base form (i.e. you'd end up with an Animal Growth'ed animal that is Polymorph'ed into something else, regardless of the order that the spells are applied in). It's not clear at any rate.

[kroarty]

The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).

Wording implies that this applies to all spells, not only personal range spells. Thus, an earth elemental who is my familiar is a valid target regardless of his creature type, for spells cast by me.

[hogarth]

kroarty wrote:

The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).

Wording implies that this applies to all spells, not only personal range spells. Thus, an earth elemental who is my familiar is a valid target regardless of his creature type, for spells cast by me.

Oops -- my mistake was not realising that Animal Growth was a wizard spell (not just a druid spell)...

[Happler]

Well the bonus would not stack, since most polymorph spells (I just checked a handfull) and Animal growth both grant "size" bonuses, and since bonuses of the same type do not stack...

[hogarth]

Happler wrote:

Well the bonus would not stack, since most polymorph spells (I just checked a handfull) and Animal growth both grant "size" bonuses, and since bonuses of the same type do not stack...

That much is certainly clear. But can he use Beast Shape to turn his elemental sidekick into a Small size creature like a darkmantle, and then use Animal Growth to boost it to a Medium size darkmantle with Animal Growth? That's less clear to me.

[Happler]

hogarth wrote:

Happler wrote:

Well the bonus would not stack, since most polymorph spells (I just checked a handfull) and Animal growth both grant "size" bonuses, and since bonuses of the same type do not stack...

That much is certainly clear. But can he use Beast Shape to turn his elemental sidekick into a Small size creature like a darkmantle, and then use Animal Growth to boost it to a Medium size darkmantle with Animal Growth? That's less clear to me.

Well, since that is only 1 size change (and only from Animal Growth) the I see nothing wrong with it. Now if it was changing the small elemental to a medium creature with beast shape, then using animal growth, I would have to say not allowed, since it is 2 size changes via spells.