Combat Maneuvers are considered attack rolls. The rules are clear in that.
Weapon Finesse says that you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with certain weapons.
Where does that leave Agile Maneuvers?
It looks as though there is no reason to ever take Agile Maneuvers over Weapon Finesse unless you are using a non-finesse-able weapon or are foregoing a weapon altogether (as some maneuvers do by default). Is that really the case?
As you said, I think its designed to be applied to un-finesseable weapons for that purpose, I dont see why anyone would take both feats if they are going to use a finesse weapon in this case.
On a side note, I never noticed that terminoligy and thought about it in this sort of sense, but from the RAW it seems as both would be somewhat pointless for someone for a finesse weapon.
Or if you want to trip someone. Remember you can only use a weapon that has the trip quality.
Or if you want to overrun someone - you don't use your weapon for that.
Basically any CMB roll that doesn't involve your finessable weapon.
Remember you can only use a weapon that has the trip quality.
I do believe that you are incorrect on this. You can use any weapon to trip someone. The trip quality allows you to drop your "trip" weapon if you are tripped in our own trip attempt, rather than be tripped yourself (if you fail your trip attempt by 10 or more)(p145 and 201 Core).
If your weapon doesn't have the trip quality, you make a normal trip attempt and like you said can be tripped. You actually don't use your melee weapon for tripping unless it's a 'trip' weapon.
*edit* there's actually numerous threads on this, and specifically answered by JJ, on the "Trip and Trip Weapons, Must they go Together?"
thread.
Tanis has it right.
You can attempt to trip an enemy in one of three ways:
1) You perform the trip combat maneuver without a weapon. Note that if you do, you are not making an unarmed strike/natural weapon attack and as such, bonuses and penalties to unarmed strikes/natural weapons do not apply to the check. You are simply making a trip attempt without a weapon, very much like you are meant to make a grapple attempt without a weapon.
2) You use a trip weapon to trip the target.
3) You use some other ability, such as a wolf's trip after a bite attack.
That's pretty much it. The rules as written support it (though there is a lot of room for interpretation) and to clench the issue the game designers have stepped in and clarified it here on the forums.
If your weapon doesn't have the trip quality, you make a normal trip attempt and like you said can be tripped. You actually don't use your melee weapon for tripping unless it's a 'trip' weapon.
*edit* there's actually numerous threads on this, and specifically answered by JJ, on the "Trip and Trip Weapons, Must they go Together?"
thread.
Yes. And some people aren't satisfied by the answer. Tripping is close to uselessness as a maneuver, now. It can still be used, but only by a dedicated build, due to the fact that few people would invest in magical trip weapons. The official answer you pointed out implies that one has to design his character carefully if he wants to actually trip enemies.
A counter example, if you will: if I have a fighter character specializing in the greatsword (just an example, and he finally got a magical one) and happening to have Improved Trip (just because he wanted versatility in tactics), chances are that he will never use Trip because all his training with the greatsword is for naught.
That rant being done, I agree that JJ's answer solves the dilemma. It makes one reflect about that old saying "be careful what you wish for" :-)
It looks as though there is no reason to ever take Agile Maneuvers over Weapon Finesse unless you are using a non-finesse-able weapon or are foregoing a weapon altogether (as some maneuvers do by default). Is that really the case?
Like you said, some maneuvers don't use a weapon (e.g. Grapple, Overrun), so Weapon Finesse wouldn't help you.
If your weapon doesn't have the trip quality, you make a normal trip attempt and like you said can be tripped. You actually don't use your melee weapon for tripping unless it's a 'trip' weapon.
*edit* there's actually numerous threads on this, and specifically answered by JJ, on the "Trip and Trip Weapons, Must they go Together?"
thread.
Yes. And some people aren't satisfied by the answer. Tripping is close to uselessness as a maneuver, now. It can still be used, but only by a dedicated build, due to the fact that few people would invest in magical trip weapons. The official answer you pointed out implies that one has to design his character carefully if he wants to actually trip enemies.
A counter example, if you will: if I have a fighter character specializing in the greatsword (just an example, and he finally got a magical one) and happening to have Improved Trip (just because he wanted versatility in tactics), chances are that he will never use Trip because all his training with the greatsword is for naught.
That rant being done, I agree that JJ's answer solves the dilemma. It makes one reflect about that old saying "be careful what you wish for" :-)
You are right that you will actually have to build towards tripping, but honestly I think this is how it should be. If that same greatsword specialist had rapid shot, he would probably use it just as infrequently. That doesnt make rapid shot a poor feat, just an odd choice for that particular character.
Yes. And some people aren't satisfied by the answer. Tripping is close to uselessness as a maneuver, now. It can still be used, but only by a dedicated build, due to the fact that few people would invest in magical trip weapons.
Huh? Every 3.5 tripping fighter I've seen used a (magical) trip weapon, like a guisarme or a spiked chain.
Yes. And some people aren't satisfied by the answer. Tripping is close to uselessness as a maneuver, now. It can still be used, but only by a dedicated build, due to the fact that few people would invest in magical trip weapons.Huh? Every 3.5 tripping fighter I've seen used a (magical) trip weapon, like a guisarme or a spiked chain.
Indeed, particularly (like your examples) trip weapons with reach
A counter example, if you will: if I have a fighter character specializing in the greatsword (just an example, and he finally got a magical one) and happening to have Improved Trip (just because he wanted versatility in tactics), chances are that he will never use Trip because all his training with the greatsword is for naught.
And this is exactly the reason why Pathfinder allows fighters to switch out feats, so they don't end up in the trap you describe.
And this is exactly the reason why Pathfinder allows fighters to switch out feats, ......
They do?
They do?
And this is exactly the reason why Pathfinder allows fighters to switch out feats, ......
"Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned."They do?
And this is exactly the reason why Pathfinder allows fighters to switch out feats, ......
Clearly there was a conspiracy or something to hide that from me. I demand justice.