I'm starting up a Thief campaign. Each of the characters has a different Rogue 'role' to prevent a lot of overlap in their skill-sets and to give each character places to uniquely shine.
So now I'm debating the appropriate amount of XP to hand out for defeating Traps and how to divvy that XP up.
I could just share the experience evenly among all party members regardless of whether or not they actually had a hand in disarming the trap... but is that fair when the 'burglar' handles the lion-share of the work? Of course, that opens the door for all characters to receive solo XP for their particular contributions - in other words - XP accounting Hell.
Conversely, if all of the experience goes to the burglar... are the experience point totals based on Trap CR appropriate? Should defeating a CR1 trap really be worth 400 XP? So conceivably defeating 5 traps gets a Rogue (on the Medium Experience Path) from 1st to 2nd Level.
Do you give 'partial credit' to a rogue that spots the trap but fails to disarm it?
What I'm looking for is your general thoughts on XP for Traps and how you handle them in your own campaigns. I'm not tied to RAW - so feel free to mention your methods even if they are very different than the rules.
Thanks, in advance, for your opinions.
I'm starting up a Thief campaign. Each of the characters has a different Rogue 'role' to prevent a lot of overlap in their skill-sets and to give each character places to uniquely shine.
So now I'm debating the appropriate amount of XP to hand out for defeating Traps and how to divvy that XP up.
I could just share the experience evenly among all party members regardless of whether or not they actually had a hand in disarming the trap... but is that fair when the 'burglar' handles the lion-share of the work? Of course, that opens the door for all characters to receive solo XP for their particular contributions - in other words - XP accounting Hell.
Conversely, if all of the experience goes to the burglar... are the experience point totals based on Trap CR appropriate? Should defeating a CR1 trap really be worth 400 XP? So conceivably defeating 5 traps gets a Rogue (on the Medium Experience Path) from 1st to 2nd Level.
Do you give 'partial credit' to a rogue that spots the trap but fails to disarm it?
What I'm looking for is your general thoughts on XP for Traps and how you handle them in your own campaigns. I'm not tied to RAW - so feel free to mention your methods even if they are very different than the rules.
Thanks, in advance, for your opinions.
Ah, I've been here before, I find it best to award the characters as a group - after all, one character has skill at something the others dont and each overcomes challenges with aid from their friends.
This approach prevents powergaming, by having characters work together to amass as much XP as possible as a communal effort than to have individual rewards for characters which encourages a inter-party competitiveness that can be destructive to a cohesive party.You award all Xp gained equally, and if a character fails to disarm a trap normally you'd award none to little experience - much the same way a Barbarian or a Monk relying on high saves and good HP rushing down a corridor full of traps would not be awarded...they didnt 'learn anything' from the event other than their own stupidity almost cost them their skins. A successful disarm attempt is self-education, someone learning to bypass traps of that sort and bettering themselves for it - a failed test is simply a 'bad experience' for them and one they'll likely try to forget rather than remember.
In general, split everything equally - characters will still gain XP, but be sure to reward characters for roleplaying so those who make an effort dont go unrewarded and this encourages the other laid back players to follow suit.
Good questions. I think it's important to split the XP evenly, since traps are counted as "encounters" the same way a battle is. If you didn't split the XP for them they way you do for a fight, well, imagine what you'd have to do splitting the XP for a fight and you get the picture.
In my experience trap CRs are extremely difficult to estimate. What I would recommend is building them with your player's character sheets in hand, and make it so that it is as easy or hard as you want it to be (do they need to roll a 5? 10? 15? to beat the check) and assign the CR based on how hard the trap is compared to their APL. That way you are in complete control of how much XP they get, and can balance it to the difficulty you are trying to achieve.
In my experience trap CRs are extremely difficult to estimate. What I would recommend is building them with your player's character sheets in hand, and make it so that it is as easy or hard as you want it to be (do they need to roll a 5? 10? 15? to beat the check) and assign the CR based on how hard the trap is compared to their APL. That way you are in complete control of how much XP they get, and can balance it to the difficulty you are trying to achieve.
This is definitely one of the headaches. It is somewhat mitigated when your policy is to split the experience among all characters but there are still some odd bits here.
For instance, there are some mechanical CR1, CR4, and CR6 traps (with commensurately higher XP values) that have the exact same DCs (20) for Spot/Disarm. The only difference is that if the Rogue fails - the damage is a good deal higher. But the traps themselves aren't harder to spot or defeat. It just seems like the XP jump from CR1 to CR6 is out of proportion to the difficulty of defeating the trap. If we compare that to creature encounters - you know a CR6 monster is going to be harder to defeat in addition to doing more damage than a CR1 monster. So the parity isn't quite there... which is why I'm wondering if the CR ratings of standard traps needs a little GM tweaking.
Creative Director
|
Treat traps as monsters. If they're defeated (and that includes triggering them but surviving and moving on beyond the trap), they award XP to the entire party. This, incidentally, is a good reason NOT to put dozens of identical CR1 traps in a dungeon. Not only does that hand out way too much XP for something that the PCs will soon figure out and know how to avoid... but lots of identical traps is BORING.
Treat traps as monsters. If they're defeated (and that includes triggering them but surviving and moving on beyond the trap), they award XP to the entire party. This, incidentally, is a good reason NOT to put dozens of identical CR1 traps in a dungeon. Not only does that hand out way too much XP for something that the PCs will soon figure out and know how to avoid... but lots of identical traps is BORING.
I can understand where your coming from James, but one or two of my players more or less rush past the party Rogue, the Barbarian or the Monk, relying on good saves, good HP to 'survive' the trap, ruling that its quicker than giving the Rogue a few rounds to search for and disarm the trap.
That kind of thinking for a character is unneccisarily reckless, much like a character punching the city guard for being drunk and somehow beating the guy up isnt exactly going to teach him anything once he gets arrested - I wouldnt award XP for that, it wasnt constructive or safe for the character to do. Sure he takes all the risk by putting his neck on the line, but thats not heroism (unless time is a serious issue in the adventure), thats stupidity. Sure he's going to fail his save eventually when it matters, but the party Rogue despairs hes wasted his time with Disable Device when other characters always steal his thunder. The party Rogue is trying to disarm the trap harmlessly, avoiding wasting resources on healing (given the Channeling abilities of Clerics, this problem in my game has worsened tenfold).|
Creative Director
|
I can understand where your coming from James, but one or two of my players more or less rush past the party Rogue, the Barbarian or the Monk, relying on good saves, good HP to 'survive' the trap, ruling that its quicker than giving the Rogue a few rounds to search for and disarm the trap.
That kind of thinking for a character is unneccisarily reckless, much like a character punching the city guard for being drunk and somehow beating the guy up isnt exactly going to teach him anything once he gets arrested - I wouldnt award XP for that, it wasnt constructive or safe for the character to do. Sure he takes all the risk by putting his neck on the line, but thats not heroism (unless time is a serious issue in the adventure), thats stupidity. Sure he's going to fail his save eventually when it matters, but the party Rogue despairs hes wasted his time with Disable Device when other characters always steal his thunder.
This problem is fundamentally no different than the situation where you have one PC built to be a diplomat/enchantment specialist whose tricks are constantly ruined by the over exuberant combat players who don't give the diplomat player a chance to do his thing. Defeating a city guard by diplomacy or by sword doesn't matter; if you get by him, you should get XP for the party.
The problem is not with giving out XP for traps, but that you have some players who are not respecting another player's character or choice of game play style, and are purposefully (although perhaps unknowingly) ruining the game for that player.
If you put a trap in a dungeon and the party just "muscles" through it and survives, they ABSOLUTELY should get the XP, just as if the party rogue had disarmed it. If you're finding your players aren't interested in traps, you probably shouldn't use them as often in your game or, perhaps, you should try putting in traps that specifically really hit hard against the tactics of "just run through."
An unwise/reckless character is a perfectly legitimate build. You shouldn't punish a player for roleplaying a character to be impatient and reckless by not issuing XP for surviving encounters, in any case. But you should probably talk with those reckless gamers and let them know that they're ruining the game for another player.
|
Creative Director
|
Actually... the more I think about this particular situation... I think the right solution WOULD be to just tell the PCs point-blank that they WON'T get XP for traps they just muscle through. Or perhaps a better solution would be to award half XP to the party for those traps; if they want to earn FULL XP, they need to disarm them.
Regardless... it still sounds like some players need a talking to.
Treat traps as monsters. If they're defeated (and that includes triggering them but surviving and moving on beyond the trap), they award XP to the entire party. This, incidentally, is a good reason NOT to put dozens of identical CR1 traps in a dungeon. Not only does that hand out way too much XP for something that the PCs will soon figure out and know how to avoid... but lots of identical traps is BORING.I can understand where your coming from James, but one or two of my players more or less rush past the party Rogue, the Barbarian or the Monk, relying on good saves, good HP to 'survive' the trap, ruling that its quicker than giving the Rogue a few rounds to search for and disarm the trap.
That kind of thinking for a character is unneccisarily reckless, much like a character punching the city guard for being drunk and somehow beating the guy up isnt exactly going to teach him anything once he gets arrested - I wouldnt award XP for that, it wasnt constructive or safe for the character to do. Sure he takes all the risk by putting his neck on the line, but thats not heroism (unless time is a serious issue in the adventure), thats stupidity. Sure he's going to fail his save eventually when it matters, but the party Rogue despairs hes wasted his time with Disable Device when other characters always steal his thunder. The party Rogue is trying to disarm the trap harmlessly, avoiding wasting resources on healing (given the Channeling abilities of Clerics, this problem in my game has worsened tenfold).
I am not sure if this would be a valid suggestion for your game, but how about creating traps that cannot be rushed past? My examples of such would be magical traps that use some sort of domination to turn party fighters against the group, traps that remove players from play until the trap is disabled?
Basicly if you increase the amount of time the party is out of action as apposed to how much time it takes to disable a trap they may start looking at disabling traps as not as much of a waste of the parties time.
Oh there is times when the party comes up against a trap I created (or used from Grimtooths Traps splatbook) that the 'deathwish' Monk or Barbarian comes up against that their 'method' gets them sorely punished for being reckless and the Rogue can take over, and as much as I talk to these characters/players and explain that while the whole party benefits from XP when a trap is overcome, I could understand someone accidentally 'surviving' a trap they set off or the Rogue failing his Disable Device check and rewarding them for that, but alot of what I call "generic" traps tend to show up throughout alot of old published adventures (pits, arrow traps, etc.) and this 'reckless abandonment' sees the Rogue relegated to Sneak Attack duties instead of helping with traps.
And because healing is more readily available with the Channel Energy ability they do this more than they ever used to (I know its still a waste of resources, but they are more or less like thrillseekers when it comes to their characters). If one of them does "die" with a fluke roll of a 1, they more or less rename the character, reroll the stats and rejig items as neccisary....
I do reward what I see as a character development, dont get me wrong, I am all for fairness and I award everyone for every encounter (even if they just sneak through or past some monsters to achieve a greater goal since they overcame the challege without using resources) but traps I find a little more difficult, to me, the Rogue is unique in his ability to understand and disarm traps, he learned to do this and understand how it works and to counteract its mechanisms or whatnot, and he learned to deal with newer and newer traps as he faces them using past experience. Thats fine, but a character who just goes running down every corridor, rolling saves and shrugging off HP damage every minute can be annoying, and I cant see what the character learned other than their own stupidity almost cost them their lives.
|
It sounds like the ones who just rush through traps don't have any respect for them, and that sounds like the root of the problem.
1. Temporarily don't give them XP for any traps. If you dislike this approach, see 3.
2. Next time they are due at a location or a dungeon, make it trap infested like they will not believe. I'm talking rolling a boulder down sloping corridors, which they will run from and fall into a pit trap, which the boulder falls into on top of them, and then the walls start crushing together giving them only a round or two tops to get out (also highly efficient, if all traps are auto reset the walls crush the boulder whil resetting the pit trap)... While the Boulder trap going off triggers an alarm spell simultaneously and the denizens become aware, and ready to meet the party with poisoned crossbow bolts fired through arrow slits at the other end, previously hidden by trapdoors only openable/closeable from the inside. If you need ideas for good traps, there are many good threads on enworld, GITP etc.
^ That should be the first corridor to this place. Make it a kobold lair or a thieve's guild if you want the fluff to fit, they are renowned for this stuff. The trap i've outlined above can be absolutely devastating to a party, yet its basically a combination of three rather humble CR traps.
Once they respect the power of traps to
A. Make them lose the element of surprise and often result in an ambush.
B. Make them expend serious amounts of resources.
They will let the rogue do his thing. Most parties include a Rogue for a reason; traps should be feared. I also dislike the metagame thinking behind their logic We can take the hits to our hp bla bla . Can they honestly say their characters dismiss dangerous traps because the players want to save a few minutes?
Also, if they dislike the time consuming portion of trapfinding, the Rogue should take the Trap Spotter rogue talent, and you should pre-roll a passive check for each trap he encounters, adding it to your classic room/corridor description if necessary.
3. If you dislike not awarding XP for the traps; make them part of the enemy BBEG's gear budget, buying them with his money can be justified as becoming part of his CR.
If they are mid-high level, don't be afraid to use something brutal like a Wail of the Banshee trap on them if necessary.
Hope this helps; if you wat some ideas for traps I have devised several ingenious and evil ones over the years... :)
Also, consider using some traps that don't do HP damage. I had a dungeon once laced with traps like concealed doors that would slide you down to another level; either the rest of the party chooses to follow, or Mr. Reckless is suddenly running solo until he finds the rest of the party again. Or a trap that teleports you back out of the dungeon: ditto.
There's a trap in one of the Traps & Treachery books that teleports away the heaviest item the PC is carrying to an undisclosed location (like the treasure room at the end of the dungeon). Once they lose their armor or weapon, they'll be much happier to let the rogue go first to disarm. :)
I know it's not so much a trap, but one idea for something that would slow them down and make them think twice would be a "trap" that when tripped, shifted them into an extra-dimensional pocket where they had to solve a riddle/puzzle in a certain amount of time or die. That will take them a heck of a lot longer than a rogue disarming the traps.
Currently I'm playing in 1st ed AD&D campaign with some friends. The DM awards experience individually for all encounters (traps and monsters) based on participation in the event. In addition to the exp for traps/monsters he also gives out Role Play exp (RPExp).
For example if we are fighting 3 monsters and 1 has a jewel pendant around its neck, if the teams lawful good hero decided to go after the mob with the pendant to loot from the special mob while not helping with the rest of the fight, he's get zero or negative RPExp and exp for 1 of the 3 mobs. However if our neutral / RP'd as greedy character did the same, then proceeded to loot the mob while the others were still fighting, he would still only get exp for 1 of 3 mobs, but he did get the pendant and probably would get a RPExp bonus.
For us this works, but then again, we are fairly heavy on RP with that group and if your group is not, it might not go over well.
As the DM you really can do whatever you need to do to get this player in line if they are ruining the game for one or more of your other players, and this thread has lots of great ideas. I especially like the non damage traps, eg "You triggered the trap and acid fell on your full plate, roll a d6 and subtract that from the current AC value because its full of acid holes now."
If they really just don't care about the other and their enjoyment, I think you need to have a talk with them outside the world of Pathfinder and see if they really want to be in your group.