So here it is, a player proposed a character to me, a fighter specialized in shields. Uses two shields fo a high ac and shield bashes. Took the shield spec and all that. So I told him that doesn't sound like it's legal, but couldn't think of why not. Then I got to thinking, duh because shield bonuses don't stack.
So here comes the question, how unbalancing would it be to let him take a feat that let him get the bonuses for two shields? Say a feat that said you may get the ac bonus for two shields, but you either a) get the main hand bonus as a penalty to attack rolls or b) you do not get the bonus in any round you attack?
Are either of these options any good? Do you think the whole idea is nuts? I want to let him do it but if it's going to be a balance disaster I won't, so I'm seeking advice on the ruling, aswell as comments from anyone who tried to make this work before. Thanks.
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There was a feat in Iron Heroes that allowed you to do this (Improved Shield Bash mastery 5), but that system doesn't need to worry about magical shields.
Perhaps if you rule that only the greater of the enhancement bonuses applies it would work out, and I would probably go with your option b, with another feat to remove that restriction (perhaps with a +6 BaB requirement).
So here it is, a player proposed a character to me, a fighter specialized in shields. Uses two shields fo a high ac and shield bashes. Took the shield spec and all that. So I told him that doesn't sound like it's legal, but couldn't think of why not. Then I got to thinking, duh because shield bonuses don't stack.
So here comes the question, how unbalancing would it be to let him take a feat that let him get the bonuses for two shields? Say a feat that said you may get the ac bonus for two shields, but you either a) get the main hand bonus as a penalty to attack rolls or b) you do not get the bonus in any round you attack?
Are either of these options any good? Do you think the whole idea is nuts? I want to let him do it but if it's going to be a balance disaster I won't, so I'm seeking advice on the ruling, aswell as comments from anyone who tried to make this work before. Thanks.
I didn't personally see this as a huge balance issue when one of my players did this. I didn't use the same restrictions as you, but I think both a) and b) are good. He will have a slightly higher AC than normal, but unless the shieldes are magical, this won't be a huge difference (1 or 2 points more probably). The problem will be when he gets magical shields and then his AC will be higher than the norm. I personally would apply both a) and b) but it may seem harsh. In the end, it's up to you to decide how much those extra AC points are worth.
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This is something that I've been trying to make work for a while now. I'm not sure a Feat would do it justice personally.
I've been playing around with a 3-5 Level Prestige Class focused on Shields and in particular the use of two shields as you primary attack options. It's coming along slowly though I'm afraid. :(
There was a feat in Iron Heroes that allowed you to do this (Improved Shield Bash mastery 5), but that system doesn't need to worry about magical shields.
Perhaps if you rule that only the greater of the enhancement bonuses applies it would work out, and I would probably go with your option b, with another feat to remove that restriction (perhaps with a +6 BaB requirement).
Actually, this is better than my idea...
(Which Iron Heroes book is this in? I don't recall it personally.)
It's the main one, page 133 (at least in the revised edition).Actually, this is better than my idea...
(Which Iron Heroes book is this in? I don't recall it personally.)
Wow timely responses.... So I like the ideas presented so what do ya think?
Twin Shield Style:[Fighter, General] Req: BaB +3, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Agile Shield Fighter. You may wield two shields, one in each hand and apply the shield bonus of both to your ac, however only the greater enhancement bonus applies. You lose the shield bonus, and any enhancement bonuses to ac in any round you attack until the start of your next turn (this applies to AoO).
Special: Shield bonuses do not stack. This feat allows them to for these purposes only.
Twin Shield Mastery: [Fighter, General] Req: BaB +6, Twin Shield Style, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Agile Shield Fighter. You no longer lose the ac bonus of your main hand when attacking in a round. All other rules still apply.
Twin Shield Style: [Fighter, General] Req: BaB +3,Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Agile Shield Fighter. You may wield two shields, one in each hand and apply the shield bonus of both to your ac, however only the greater enhancement bonus applies. You lose any enhancement bonuses to ac in any round you attack until the start of your next turn, and take the shield bonus as a penalty to attack rolls. (this applies to AoO).
Special: Shield bonuses do not stack. This feat allows them to for these purposes only.
Twin Shield Mastery: [Fighter, General] Req: BaB +6, Twin Shield Style,Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Agile Shield Fighter. You no longer lose the enhancement bonus of your main hand or take a penalty on attack rolls when attacking in a round. All other rules still apply.
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Wow timely responses.... So I like the ideas presented so what do ya think?
Twin Shield Style:[Fighter, General] Req: BaB +3, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Agile Shield Fighter. You may wield two shields, one in each hand and apply the shield bonus of both to your ac, however only the greater enhancement bonus applies. You lose the shield bonus, and any enhancement bonuses to ac from the shield in your main hand in any round you attack until the start of your next turn (this applies to AoO).
Special: Shield bonuses do not stack. This feat allows them to for these purposes only.Twin Shield Mastery: [Fighter, General] Req: BaB +6, Twin Shield Style, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Agile Shield Fighter. You no longer lose the ac bonus of your main hand when attacking in a round. All other rules still apply.
This is the one I would choose, but with the extra text I've bolded. After all, improved shield bash already allows you to attack with one shield without losing its bonus.
Edit: It looks like that's what you meant anyway looking at the second feat.
Wow timely responses.... So I like the ideas presented so what do ya think?
Twin Shield Style:[Fighter, General] Req: BaB +3, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Agile Shield Fighter. You may wield two shields, one in each hand and apply the shield bonus of both to your ac, however only the greater enhancement bonus applies. You lose the shield bonus, and any enhancement bonuses to ac from the shield in your main hand in any round you attack until the start of your next turn (this applies to AoO).
Special: Shield bonuses do not stack. This feat allows them to for these purposes only.Twin Shield Mastery: [Fighter, General] Req: BaB +6, Twin Shield Style, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Agile Shield Fighter. You no longer lose the ac bonus of your main hand when attacking in a round. All other rules still apply.
This is the one I would choose, but with the extra text I've bolded. After all, improved shield bash already allows you to attack with one shield without losing its bonus.
Edit: It looks like that's what you meant anyway looking at the second feat.
Yea I like that one too, I think it feels cleaner and more in line with the character concept. I have a funny feeling the other version could seriously underpower him until 6th level...
I believe that the size of the shields involved should be taken into account.
Two weapon fighting for example the best case assumes a one handed main weapon and a light weapon in the off hand.
Well at this point were considering the sizes as Buckler and small = light, while Heavy equals a one handed so two heavy steel shields used for two weapon shield bashes is equal to a -4/-4 attack rolls with Agile shield fighter (which effectively is two weapon fighting for shields only)...
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Green Ronin's Plot & Poison had a similar idea, expressed both with Feats and a Fighting Style (similar to those on Oriental Adventures p 80-81) called Mithral Carapace. (All of that chapter is OGC, so I can post 'em.)
Feats;
Double Shielding
Prereqs: Dex 15+, Alertness, Ambidexterity (this was written for 3.0, replace with Two-Weapon Fighting!), Shield proficiency and BAB +3 or higher.
Effect: When you employ a shield with an ACP of -1 or less, you can equip a second shield with an ACP of -1 or less in your other hand and gain the AC bonus for both shields. You suffer the combined ACP penalties for both shields, and if using two bucklers and attempting to use a two-handed melee weapon or ranged weapon that requires two hands, suffer a -2 to to your attack rolls.
You can make shield bash attacks with the shield in your primary hand, but lose its bonus to your AC until your next turn.
This feat can be taken as a Fighter feat.
Shield Mastery
Prereqs: Shield proficiency
Effect: Choose a type of shield (buckler, light, heavy, tower), you reduce the ACP of that type of shield by 1 to a minimum of zero.
Can be taken as a Fighter feat.
Shield Specialization
Prereqs: Shield proficiency and Shield Mastery
Effect: When you make a shield bash with the type of shield you have selected for Shield Mastery, you can regain the shields bonus to your AC as a free action. If you have Double Shielding, you can regain the bonus to your AC from both shields at the same time, so long as both shields are the type you have chosen for Shield Mastery.
If you choose the buckler for Shield Mastery, you can now shield bash with a buckler for 1d3 damage and do not suffer the usual -1 penalty to attacks with that arm. In addition, you can regain the bucklers AC bonus after making an attack with any weapon held in that hand.
Can be taken as a Fighter bonus feat.
With the Mithral Carapace style, you need a metric butt-load of Feats, but end up with the ability to treat your shields defensive enhancement bonus as a bonus to attack and defense rolls when you shield-bash with that weapon, which is probably such a radioactive concept that it could burn out a Geiger counter...
The use of two spiked bucklers is an actual style and should unbalance anything. The overall AC bonus is not that great when defending with both and consider the disadvantages of reach and the difficulty of freeing a hand. Sticking with bucklers would be important for manueverability reasons. A classic strategy is to entangle a shield and drag it away from where it can do any good at all. In terms of magic, well if you give out major gold or super bonuses that is your own decision. Slightly off topic I have always thought that carrying a shield and wearing one on the back would be beneficial. Also, shield bash is a feat--meaning watch out for a sneaky player who might say he deserves a normal attack as well.
