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I was just looking at the Bestiary rules, and I came across something interesting.
Now, going by the skeleton creation rules, any 1st level PC that is turned into a skeleton becomes a 1/3 CR monster. This means that a Skeletal CHAMPION version of the same PC becomes a CR 1, which is technically in-line with the rest of the group creating a level 1 character.
Theoretically, would it be possible to just use the skeletal champion "template" as a sort of racial "template" like Human or Half-Orc?
I know the game isn't balanced around using monsters as PC's, but looking at the Skeletal Champion, it seems... pretty balanced. While some of the abilities seem kinda powerful (DR 5/Bludgeoning), but the distinct lack of a Constitution score seems like it'd balance this out. Thoughts?
If you left out the racial HD, I suppose it would be somewhat balanced...I think I'd probably rule that you don't get your base racial modifiers--otherwise you could end up with, say, an elf skeletal champion which gets +2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int, and no penalties. But it would definitely be possible to balance it for 1st level play.
So why is a 1st level warrior skeletal champion a CR 2?
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The player would have quite a few issues to deal with. For instance, he or she would only be healed by negative energy. He or she would also have a heck of a time in urban areas and social settings, especially near any churches with undead-hunting clergy.
If I were DM, I'd prbably allow it, but I'd warn the player ahead of time that they're choosing a tough road.
It's an interesting idea.
Comparison's to 1st level characters though - an NPC cleric 1 is CR 1/2.
Also - no con score is a benefit, they get Charisma modifier to hit-points and fort saves.
No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC).
Also:
# Darkvision 60 feet.# Immunity to all mind-affecting effects, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, stunning. Also nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, damage to physical ability scores, exhaustion & fatigue effects, massive damage, anything requiring a Fort save (unless it works on objects).
# Simple Weapon Proficiency.
# Can't be raised, can be resurrected (but not as skeletal champions).
# Do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
If you're looking for an LA, +2 would probably be about right. If you wanted to play one, I'd ask the DM about it. If the general idea is okay, start as a regular character, and arrange with the DM to die some horrid necromantic death around level 3 or 4, and come back a level or two lower as a skeletal champion.
Actually, its LA +3, because it's 1 + CR as for a skeleton with the same hit dice (1( CR for 2HD skeleton)+1) and, that a PC's CR is equal to its level -1.
Humbly,
Yawar
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Please note that I am not, in any way, wanting to try and find a "Level Adjustment" for the Skeletal Champion Template. I'm simply following the rules given in the bestiary for playing Monstrous Characters. According to those rules, the CR 2 Skeletal Champion would fit into a level 2 party. The CR for any skeletal creature is based entirely on HD, not class levels, previous race, etc., not on the base creature's CR. As such, a Skeletal Champion with one level of Fighter (or any base class) would have the same number of HD. As such, it should have the same CR as the Warrior version presented.
Additionally, as soon as the group levels up, using the traditional Skeletal Champion presented (CR 2), he would reach level 3, and increase his Warrior 1 to Warrior 1/Fighter 2, or whatever classes he wishes, because of the CR reduction included when playing with a party. This means that, by level 3, a Skeletal Champion would really only have a Level Adjustment of +1 if used as presented.
*Edit: It actually isn't even a level adjustment because you still get HD for the "Empty Level"
I thought level adjustment didn't exist anymore...? From my understanding, it didn't actually solve the problems because it actually underpowered characters with a level adjustment.
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I thought level adjustment didn't exist anymore...? From my understanding, it didn't actually solve the problems because it actually underpowered characters with a level adjustment.
That's absolutely correct. One of the things the Bestiary tried to do was base character levels off of monster CR rather than any kind of Level Adjustment. There are a couple of races (Such as Tieflings and Aasimar) that they recommend weakening for use with a full party, but overall level adjustments are completely gone, which is a good thing, in my opinion.
Now, if anything, I'm not using this thread to "break the system", because Paizo has stated, time and time again, that monsters aren't fit for standard play. If anything, this is probably another thread which is begging for some kind of system of creating Monstrous PC's.
Still, by RAW, it should technically be possible to create a 3rd level Skeletal Champion with 3 levels in any given class.
You're picking the worst possible monster to try to use as a PC.
The Skeletal Champions CR calculations are sketchy at best, resulting in some creatures getting significant boosts to power level while LOWERING the CR considerably, in some cases by as much as HALF of the original creature.
If you want to rely on CR of a monster template to determine a PC's level, the Skeletal Champion is going to become a mess waiting to happen. Things might line up real pretty at first or 2nd level, but check out how things work with the CRs at say 10th or 15th level for a skeletal champion PC.
You're picking the worst possible monster to try to use as a PC.
The Skeletal Champions CR calculations are sketchy at best, resulting in some creatures getting significant boosts to power level while LOWERING the CR considerably, in some cases by as much as HALF of the original creature.
If you want to rely on CR of a monster template to determine a PC's level, the Skeletal Champion is going to become a mess waiting to happen. Things might line up real pretty at first or 2nd level, but check out how things work with the CRs at say 10th or 15th level for a skeletal champion PC.
How are you getting those numbers?
Note that the level adjustment for monsters is equal to CR + 1 - Class levels - (NPC classes - 1)*.
The CR of the Skeletal Champion is based on the racial hit dice, derived from a skeleton of equal hit Skeleton by simply adding +1 to the CR, and its class levels.
The Bestiary example is prone to confusion because the Warrior level from the example isn't adding to its CR (Warrior 1 -1)
Humbly,
Yawar
*If any.
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First off, let me remind you that I'm doing this mostly as a point of theorycrafting based on the current ruleset. As a player, I probably would not do this.
To Quote the section of the Bestiary titled "Monster PC's":
If you are including a single monster character in a
group of standard characters, make sure the group is of
a level that is at least as high as the monster’s CR. Treat
the monster’s CR as class levels when determining the
monster PC’s overall levels. For example, in a group of
6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2
levels of a core class, such as barbarian.
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit
Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels.
It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the
group, the monster character should gain an extra level,
received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat
this process a number of times equal to half the monster’s
CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when
the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the
minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making
him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at
10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when
the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he
gains levels normally.
The challenge rating of the Skeletal Champion is 2 which, halved, is 1. So at level 3(aka, the first 3 levels), the Skeletal Champion would gain an additional class level, including the class level it would gain for leveling up. This stacks with the class already present in the entry.
Allow me to say that, in the entry, the CR for the Skeletal Champion is 2, despite the presence of an NPC class. This means that either:
A)The Skeletal Champion's initial class/abilities are not factored into the CR because the CR is determined solely by HD.
B)This is an error, and the Skeletal Champion should be a CR 1.
Note that I am NOT using the monster's CR to determine his level in relation to the group at later levels. Going by the recommended system, he is now "on par" with the rest of the group, and from then on he counts as an equal level member, taking class levels accordingly.
Interesting, there was a post after the bestiary release about the Noble Drow as PCs. There James Jacobs stated that Noble Drows count as having one more class level since they had CR equal to its class levels rather than the usual CR-1 for standar races.
Humbly,
Yawar
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Interesting, there was a post after the bestiary release about the Noble Drow as PCs. There James Jacobs stated that Noble Drows count as having one more class level since they had CR equal to its class levels rather than the usual CR-1 for standar races.
Humbly,
Yawar
To everyone, I would like to remind you that I am not trying to abuse the system. This is more a means of pointing out the flaws in the current design, and potentially allowing the good workers at Paizo to rectify the situation.
Yawar -- Interesting. I haven't seen or read anything like that. I wonder if that's the case for ALL Monstrous PCs. The reason I mention this is because, as far as I'm concerned, the Drow Noble is SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than the Skeletal Champion, or many of the other Monstrous characters usually presented.
Any chance we could get an official response on this?
*Edit: My above question still stands, but it IS interesting that the Drow Noble entry specifically states that its CR is equal to its class level, despite the rule that the CR for a Monstrous Race with Class Levels is intended to equal its Level-1. However, no such entry exists for any other monsters (as far as I know).
Yawar -- Interesting. I haven't seen or read anything like that. I wonder if that's the case for ALL Monstrous PCs. The reason I mention this is because, as far as I'm concerned, the Drow Noble is SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than the Skeletal Champion, or many of the other Monstrous characters usually presented.
Yeah, but James said that the bonuses became kinda redundant at level 10 or so.
What intrigues me is that a Monstrous PC from a CR X monster, and hence suitable for a level X character, is CR X+1, by virtue of the stats modifications, while a ¨normal¨ level X PC is CR X-1...kinda of reversed from 3.5.
I propose testing this formulae to determine the effective ¨level adjustment¨ of a monster, its infered from the one used for monsters without racial hit dice, and is more coherent with system as a whole.
CR + 1 - Class levels - (NPC classes - 1)*
*if any
It taxes more the monsters with racial HD, but lessens a couple of abuses with spellcasting races.
Humbly,
Yawar
Quick question. Do racial HD count as class levels or NPC class levels in your formula? Or do they not count at all?
They do not count, they are already included in the CR part of the formula.
Humbly,
Yawar
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Alright, so reading through a bunch of these, its somewhat helping me figure out how to do what I want to do. I'm the GM, and I'm making the followers for a character that has Leadership (a Vampire Priest of Nethys 7, counts as a CR 9).
((I wanted to make the one 4th level follower he has a Skeletal Champion Fighter (base race human). {The party is in Geb at the moment, so it all makes sense. (Two of the players are vampires (+2 CR), and one is a half-dragon (also +2 CR, she attained it by result of taint in the Mana Wastes).} Using it straight out of the book, it just doesn't work. So... I was thinking of using what the skeletal champions "CR" calculation is as just the CR adjustment; i.e.: +1 higher than a skeleton of the same HD, only using the racial HD to calculate this number, and use it as as +# CR. Thus in effect, its base race is human, no racial HD, it gains 2 racial HD from Skeletal Champion, this would be a CR 1. Thus, it would be 3 levels of fighter with the +1 CR to make it 4. Thus if it did have racial HD prior, say even just 1, that would be 3 racial HD, thus making it a +2 CR. Then it would be 2nd lvl Fighter, with the +2 CR to make it 4.)) ~... um... thought process here, it changes later in this post... >.>;
This still doesn't sit well with me, but I do realize the Skeletal Champion gets far less than a Vampire or Half-Dragon, which are both +2 CR, so taking it in account with that information, the +1 CR (for no previous racial HD) actually makes sense, and as far as I can tell balances out.
Part of what got me thinking of this is the way its worded.
CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.
Why would it say PLUS one HIGHER. If it was simply a CR of 1 higher than a skeleton with the same HD, it wouldn't have the plus in front. However, with the +1 higher... it leads me to believe the CR there, is indeed a +(number), determine the number by (1 higher than a skeleton with the same HD).
(following calculated with a base creature with no racial HD, the +2 from SC, and class levels, all combined)
There for, 1-3 HD (minimum 3 if it has ANY class levels) is CR 2
4-5 HD add +3 to CR
6-7 HD add +4 to CR
8-9 HD add +5 to CR
10-11 HD add +6 to CR
and so on.
Now, even here, I'm seeing problems with it as well, but at least looking at it this way removes the dilemma of a level 5 wizard gaining skeletal champion and all the sudden being CR 3... instead it would become a CR 9. But... even that seems to move it too far in the opposite direction. Thusly, putting me back up to my previous thought that class levels have nothing to do with this calculation, and only racial HD. In that case, a human (or other such base, no racial HD, species) gaining SC is simply +1 to CR (which doesn't quite add up to the stat block given in the book), and a Quasit Demon gaining SC is +3 CR.
I've rambled on enough for now, anyone care to help me with this thought process, I feel like a Tarrasque is chasing me in circles around Golarion.
Why would it say PLUS one HIGHER. If it was simply a CR of 1 higher than a skeleton with the same HD, it wouldn't have the plus in front. However, with the +1 higher... it leads me to believe the CR there, is indeed a +(number), determine the number by (1 higher than a skeleton with the same HD).
I think you are overthinking the '+'.
Creative Director
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Undead are not good choices for PCs from the start, honestly. Once you involve an undead PC in the game, there's a whole host of ramifications that simply can not be addressed by CR or things like level adjustments.
If you want to have a skeletal champion PC, just apply the template and ignore all the CR stuff, to be honest. The GM and player should remain flexible, so that the GM can adjust things as he needs while he figures out how many things that have to change in the game in order to accommodate something that's undead.
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Undead are not good choices for PCs from the start, honestly. Once you involve an undead PC in the game, there's a whole host of ramifications that simply can not be addressed by CR or things like level adjustments.
If you want to have a skeletal champion PC, just apply the template and ignore all the CR stuff, to be honest. The GM and player should remain flexible, so that the GM can adjust things as he needs while he figures out how many things that have to change in the game in order to accommodate something that's undead.
Holy thread necromancy!
Seriously though, after thinking about it, I agree with this. Being hurt by Positive Energy is bad enough, but you couldn't really do anything in any civilized town (unless you're in Geb). You'd probably get hunted and swarmed by Inquisitors, Paladins, and Clerics in NO TIME.
That's why any self-respecting Skeletal Champion puts all his ranks in Disguise. And buys lots of perfume... Actually, that totally ruins the idea of a menacing champion... It's more like a Skeletal Bard. Which is an interesting concept as well...
Or, if you want to go REALLY crazy, hit Fighter/Undead Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight :D
*Edit: But James, what about Dhampir? I thought the Paizo staff loved those guys :P
Don't forget an undead PC is DESTROYED when reaching 0 hp, the monster as PC rules are far from perfect, failing to take into account better treasure and ability scores enough, the closest thing to balancing is just making a creature with a CR roughly equal to the pcs and a GM's good judgement in disallowing some to be used.
*Edit: But James, what about Dhampir? I thought the Paizo staff loved those guys :PDhampir are zero-HD humanoids, not undead, nor templates, nor undead templates.
Slightly off topic, but since you're talking about Dhampir anyway. I too have an affinity for them, and my brother is actually playing a really cool and flavorful Dhampir Monk in the main PF game I'm running right now.
The one thing that bugs me is this: why oh why is the Dhampir's illustration in Bestiary 2 a picture of a Drow? (I'm sure it's not actually intended to be a Drow, but gosh darn does it ever look like one.)
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The one thing that bugs me is this: why oh why is the Dhampir's illustration in Bestiary 2 a picture of a Drow? (I'm sure it's not actually intended to be a Drow, but gosh darn does it ever look like one.)
I totally agree with you! Why can't it be a sexy pale menacing armor clad Dhampir? :P
I see my Thread Necromancy is strong!!!!
I do also agree that I am over-thinking the "+", but gosh darn! I'm trying to use it appropriately to make a flavorful follower NPC!!! Not even a player! AH! The Tarrasque is back! *continues running!*