Bards in every version of 3.X is a class that has been a little underwhelming, Pathfinder has helped them out somewhat but I still feel underwhelmed when I look at them. After their incarnations as the first ever prestige class in 1E, to there all around usefulness in 2E, this is what I am proposing. Bardic spellcasting remains the same in terms of being an arcane charisma based caster, spells known, and spells per day, however Bards can choose there spells known from any on the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell lists.
This change reinforces their "jacks of all trades" concept, with only the ability to cast up to 6th level spells they will never be as good as a full caster but gives them the versitility to become more useful and well rounded again. Now I am sure a barrage of "that is OP" comments is coming, but I ask you to take a step back and think if it doesnt fit, both thematically and mechanically, and give me your honest opinions.
In some ways, this would nerf the bard substantially. They'd lose the few spells on the bard's list that are reduced in level so bards can get them with a 6-level spell progression. Bards get 8th level sorcerer/wizard magic (irresistible dance, mass charm monster, greater shout). If you let them pick from any list and not create a bard-only list, they lose access to these and other spells at every bard spell level.
This would make the bard a lot like mystic theurges with one spellcasting stat. While I don't think this would be significantly broken, I like the enchantment/illusion/sonic flavor of the bard spell list. While I think they could have added some better spells to certain spell levels, I don't think losing *the style* of the class is worth it.
@meabolex: I'd counter that by saying "why change Bard spell access level?" The work's already been done by the designers in designating "bards can do it here" so why undo any of that? THAT seems more trouble than it's worth. At *worst* I'd say simply expand the bard spell list to actually include every spell in creation ... freakin' nightmare to write down, but you could if you really felt the need.
:shrugs:
I think the idea is a good one. It'll let them have a feel of the 2e bard (any spell, but much more limited and less high-level spells), mix in the 3e element of "divine magic" and the jack of trades thing, AND even more fully let the class customize it's spells.
IMO, I see nothing lost to the Bard at all ... given the tight restrictions on "spells known" period, and the spell slots, I think you'd have to work to "break" it somehow.
I think it's a good idea, Gambit. I'll probably add it to my own list of house-rules for games I run actually. ;-)
@meabolex: I'd counter that by saying "why change Bard spell access level?" The work's already been done by the designers in designating "bards can do it here" so why undo any of that? THAT seems more trouble than it's worth. At *worst* I'd say simply expand the bard spell list to actually include every spell in creation ... freakin' nightmare to write down, but you could if you really felt the need.
:shrugs:
I think the idea is a good one. It'll let them have a feel of the 2e bard (any spell, but much more limited and less high-level spells), mix in the 3e element of "divine magic" and the jack of trades thing, AND even more fully let the class customize it's spells.
IMO, I see nothing lost to the Bard at all ... given the tight restrictions on "spells known" period, and the spell slots, I think you'd have to work to "break" it somehow.
I think it's a good idea, Gambit. I'll probably add it to my own list of house-rules for games I run actually. ;-)
Yes, the Bard spell list is still available to pick from, and redundent spells use the Bards list, however they have the Cleric, Druid, and Wizards list to pick form as well.
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I would say let them pick one of those classes to choose spells from, not all three. This would give each of the three types a different "flavor", still enhance the bard class, but not open the floodgates. IMO, full access to all three may cause balance issues down the line somewhere, since it is not anticipated that a character will advance in all three and combat skills like a 4 class mystic theurge.
I would say let them pick one of those classes to choose spells from, not all three. This would give each of the three types a different "flavor", still enhance the bard class, but not open the floodgates. IMO, full access to all three may cause balance issues down the line somewhere, since it is not anticipated that a character will advance in all three and combat skills like a 4 class mystic theurge.
I dont see it being really an issue with my group, but that could be a neat idea, having a different Bardic college for each spellcasting class.
The 2e Bard? Wasn't that the Bard who could cast a more powerful fireball than an equivalent Wizard?
This was a case due to the quirks of how experience was handled in 2E with separate XP leveling charts, so a level 9 Bard and a level 9 Mage would both cast a 9d6 fireball at the same strength, but two characters with 160,000 XP would give you a level 9 Mage and a level 10 Bard.