Firstly, this is how I see it, and how I interpret the rules. I am probably wrong on a few counts, and if so constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated.
This may not be the best (or even legal) method, but it is simple, elegant, effective, completely in line with the template, and completely within the framework of the game. The end result, even if you don’t agree with certain methods, ends up as exactly what the template specifies. At 20th character level, for example, you will have 17 class levels, and have the CR+3 mod from the template.
These are some concepts which I use. Please bear with me until the end before criticising, and use the point numbers in your flames :) Also, in all examples I am using the fast progression for XP.
1. Character level and XP are forever linked. You cannot gain a character level without gaining XP, and only gaining XP (one way or another) allows you to advance in character levels. I.e. Character level 6 can only be achieved by attaining 15,000 XP.
2. The term ‘gain a level’ is a result of gaining XP. If a level 3 character with 3,300 XP was told by a rule to ‘gain a level’, he would gain 2,700 XP. The XP gain is the means by which the result is achieved. Now, it doesn’t matter to the game mechanics wether at 8th level you are at the start of the level, halfway to the next, or 1 XP short of the next level, you are still at 8th level. Thus, the benefit from gaining a level shouldn’t take that into account either, it should always be enough XP to get you from the beginning of your current level to the next level. Effectively the XP difference between the levels.
3. This is for a character that will take class levels, with the template being inherited.
4. “Monsters as PCs” states in the 4th paragraph that you treat the monster’s CR as class levels when determining the PC’s overall levels. In the template the CR for a half-fiend is that of the base creature plus either 1, 2 or 3 depending on hit die. It does not say racial HD, just HD.
5. Class levels provide 1 HD each. Using this and point 4 above, a character with 3 fighter levels (3HD) would be a character level 4 half-fiend fighter.
6. This is an important one. When a player gains enough XP to push him to 11 class levels (11 HD) he goes from character level 11 (10 class levels + 1 from the template) to character level 13 (11 class levels + 2 from the template). As stated in point 1, you can only gain character levels by gaining XP. The only way to facilitate this then is by granting him a bonus to XP, equivalent to one level. Treat this as a template bonus, or an earned bonus, just like ability point increases. It is a direct result of the half-fiend template and results in the PC effectively skipping a class level. This is why at level 1, 6, and 13 the table gives the PC XP.
7. The same monsters as PCs section from point 4 goes on to state what amount to “buy back” rules. A half-fiend’s CR modifier will, at it’s peak, be +3. By the rules we need to effect the buy-back a number of times equal to half this number rounded down, which is 1. This in effect lets us do this once in our career as a half-fiend.
8. This bit is open to interpretation: When to apply the buy-back. My choice is to start the procedure every time our CR modifier increases. Let me explain... When we have 4 or less HD our CR mod is +1. 1 halved rounded down is 0. We do the buy-back zero times. When we reach 11 HD our mod becomes +2. This halved, rounded down is 1, so now we start counting our levels. Between the 2nd and 3rd levels gained from this point, we do the buy-back which entails gaining a level halfway, which for us is between 8th and 9th levels, or more precisely, when we reach 42,000 XP. The reason we gain 16,000 XP is because that is how much XP a baseline 8th character level PC needs to get to 9th level, remembering points 1 and 2 from above. Since we can only “buy back” once in our career as a half-fiend, we never have to worry about this again.
OK, so on to the table. Character levels 1, 6 and 13 are the XP increases, 2, 7 and 14 are the skipped class levels, according to points 4, 5 and 6 above. The 8.5 character level is an abstraction of the buy-back process. Please forgive the crude formatting.
Character
Level . . . . | XP Total . .|Feats|Ability | What you as a PC get
1 . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . 0 | . 1st | . . . . .| Class level and 1,300 XP
2 . . . . . . . | . . . .1,300 | . . . . | . . . . .| --
3 . . . . . . . | . . . .3,300 | .2nd | . . . . .| Class level
4 . . . . . . . | . . . .6,000 | . . . . | .1st. .| Class level
5 . . . . . . . | . . .10,000 | . 3rd | . . . . .| Class level
6 . . . . . . . | . . .15,000 | . . . . | . . . . .| Class level and 8,000 XP
7 . . . . . . . | . . .23,000 | . 4th | . . . . .| --
8 . . . . . . . | . . .34,000 | . . . . | 2nd. .| Class level
8.5. . . . . . | . . .42,000 | . . . . | . . . . .| 16,000 XP
9 . . . . . . . | . . .50,000 | . 5th | . . . . .| Class level
10 . . . . . . | . . .71,000 | . . . . | . . . . .| Class level
11 . . . . . . | . .105,000 | . 6th | . . . . .| Class level
12 . . . . . . | . .145,000 | . . . . | .3rd. .| Class level
13 . . . . . . | . .210,000 | . 7th | . . . . .| Class level and 85,000 XP
14 . . . . . . | . .295,000 | . . . . | . . . . .| --
15 . . . . . . | . .425,000 | . 8th | . . . . .| Class level
16 . . . . . . | . .600,000 | . . . . | .4th. .| Class level
17 . . . . . . | . .850,000 | . 9th | . . . . .| Class level
18 . . . . . . | 1,200,000 | . . . . | . . . . .| Class level
19 . . . . . . | 1,700,000 | 10th | . . . . .| Class level
20 . . . . . . | 2,400,000 | . . . . | .5th. .| Class level
So please let me know what you think, hopefully I have not waisted the better part of a week on this :)
wow CJ, you've certainly put some work into this progression, i disagree on a couple of points tho.
2) Yes, lvls and xp are linked. However, why do you get the xp for free? Shouldn't you have to earn the xp to go up a CR adjustment?
Secondly, you can't have CR 8.5 I assume you mean 1/2 way between 8 & 9 you gain 16,000 xp. But my question is why should your character lvl overtake those in the party who aren't templated? Especially if you're being 'given' the xp for nothing.
I'm aware that you're not actually getting a class lvl. But the template is good enough without getting it for free.
That being said, i'm unsure of a fairer system.
PLEASE can we have an official comment on this issue?
You really should not think of it as gaining XP but gaining a character level as part of the template. The XP is the means by which you achieve the result which has to happen in order to follow the rules.
If it helps, think of it like this. At level 4 you get an ability point, because as a character you are progressively getting stronger. This is simple you getting something because your character is getting stronger.
Although it is in ALL ways a bad thing. You are now a class level behind everyone, while receiving MUCH less XP so your progression takes LONGER.
And you are a character level ahead because you are stronger than everyone else.
Also remember that in 3.5 with LA you are also being 'given' XP. A level 1 fighter with a LA+2 adjustment starts out at character level 3 with 3,000 XP. He never earned that XP, it was 'given' to him because of the LA.
This is the exact same, but it is spread out through the game instead of all right at the start.
6. This is an important one. When a player gains enough XP to push him to 11 class levels (11 HD) he goes from character level 11 (10 class levels + 1 from the template) to character level 13 (11 class levels + 2 from the template). As stated in point 1, you can only gain character levels by gaining XP. The only way to facilitate this then is by granting him a bonus to XP, equivalent to one level. Treat this as a template bonus, or an earned bonus, just like ability point increases. It is a direct result of the half-fiend template and results in the PC effectively skipping a class level. This is why at level 1, 6, and 13 the table gives the PC XP.
By my reckoning at character level 11 you only have 10 HD as you have 1 level of template which doesn't give HD. You would gain the 2nd advance in template at 11th class level which is 12th character level.
Why not have the advancement in template manifest itself when the character earns the experience needed to gain the level.
10th level fighter/half-fiend = character level 11.
On gaining enough experience to reach 12th level the fighter takes another level of fighter making 11th fighter with 1 level of half-fiend templete.
On gaining the next level (13th character level) the fighter can choose to take the advantages of their half-fiend template or take another level of fighter (They can either embrace or shun their fiendish heritage).
The above is how i'd go with a character in any game of mine.
Also remember that in 3.5 with LA you are also being 'given' XP. A level 1 fighter with a LA+2 adjustment starts out at character level 3 with 3,000 XP. He never earned that XP, it was 'given' to him because of the LA.
This is the exact same, but it is spread out through the game instead of all right at the start.
Would you generally let the above character to start in a game where everyone else is beginning at level 1 with no level adjustment?
To keep all things fair between players (especially now with no level loss due to death) they should all be on a fairly even footing.
To give one player over the time of 20 levels 3 free levels when others haven't taken a template is by my thoughts not the way to go. As a player in this theoretical game i'd be a bit annoyed that people got free levels because they chose a template.
Would you generally let the above character to start in a game where everyone else is beginning at level 1 with no level adjustment?
The rules specifically state that:
a (from the beasteary) if monstrous characters are playing the GM should select a CR and let all players start at that CR. Thus, if I was to play a level 1 fighter half-fiend, the party would start at character level 2, or
b (from the players guide concerning playing a stronger race) if a player is starting as one of the stronger races (there's a list but it's only in the print copy, I cannot find it in the PRD) the rest of the party should start at level 2.
In either case, the rules make provision for this kind of thing.
By my reckoning at character level 11 you only have 10 HD as you have 1 level of template which doesn't give HD. You would gain the 2nd advance in template at 11th class level which is 12th character level.
Yes thats correct, but as soon as the character hits his 11th class level his CR adjustment jumps straight from CR+1 to CR+2. Literally meaning he goes from character level 11 (class 10, CR+1) to character level 13 (class 11, CR+2). The table is very clear that the CR is an instant boost, not something which is worked towards via a half-fiend level, nor is it in any way a choice.
That said, I do like your idea, and in 3.5 if I remember correctly you had half-fiend options for LA+1, LA+2 and LA+3, depending on how far you wanted to go. This was great since you could decide the benefit / sacrifice yourself.
This, however, is my attempt at following the rules to accomplish what we are told has to happen. In effect I am trying to work out how this would look in an official suppliment, not a house rule situation, and to that end I believe I have done pretty well.
To give one player over the time of 20 levels 3 free levels when others haven't taken a template is by my thoughts not the way to go. As a player in this theoretical game i'd be a bit annoyed that people got free levels because they chose a template.
They are getting those 3 levels because of the template, but since they effectively lose class levels its a bad thing. In 3.5 if you took a race with a LA+3, you would start at character level 4, effectively gaining your first 3 levels for free. It is exactly the same here, but spread out through your levels instead of all at the beginning.
In fact, at character level 20 you will have a CR mod of +3 and 17 class levels. In 3.5, if you started at LA+3 you would be, surprise surprise, character level 20 with 17 class levels. So from the rules point of view, this works exactly how it was meant to.
As a veteran D&D player I can say that Pathfinder is enjoying the benefits of fresh ideas, but is also suffering from failure to learn from the wisdom of those that came before.
Paizo decided to do away with level adjustments. But in reality they only successfully did so for the player races. with minor tweaking they mearly elevated the power level of player races to be relatively equal. In so doing eliminated any predjudice at character creation.
(Bravo)
Templates represent a sudden flood of personal power. Where clearly a level adjustment must be used. To use the above example, the half-celestial template inflates the xp necessary to gain a level by +1. Eg. to reach level 2 you need 3300xp not 1300, should you aquire this template at 1st level.
As you advance to 6th level(6HD)(by gaining xp for level 7) You now must gain xp as if 2 levels higher. (no level gain until exp reaches level 9(
By the time This character achieves their CR+3 (11HD) at Level 13, they must now advance their xp using the xp of a character 3 levels higher. Ultimately leaving them with 17HD by the time they earn the xp for a level 20 character. They Give up 3 levels worth of HD,BAB,feats/ability score bonus and saves.
Thus you have balance. (Old D&D rules)
These 3 stalled levels of progression help to show the value of xp gain vs. template powers gained.
What use of xp have monsters anyway? Because, you know, templates like half-fiend or half-dragon, are intended to be used by monsters. Complaining that they are not balanced is like saying that Adult Red Dragon is not balanced.