Hey, first of all, i know that there's been many threads on monsters as PC's and i have no intention of starting up a discussion on whether or not PF should make a Savage Species-type book. I'm aware that p.313-314 of the Beastiary is just a guide, however I'd like clarification on what it actually means please in relation to a half-fiend template.
Here's how i understand it, if anyone could explain if (and how) i've got it wrong, it would be much appreciated.
When the group's between 6th & 7th lvl, I go up a class lvl, and then again at 7th. So everyone in the party is 7th lvl (and i get xp as a 9th lvl, CR +2)
When the group's between 9th & 10th lvl, I go up a class lvl, and again at 10th. So now i'm an 11th lvl character and getting xp as a 14th lvl character (CR +3)
What i don't get is why when the party's 10th lvl, i'm 1 lvl in front.
If someone could please explain how the progression works that would be excellent.
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Assuming you're a half-fiend/half-core race, you're doing it wrong.
When the party is 2nd level (the recommened introduction point for a monster PC of this CR):
You are CR 1. You treat your "monster" CR as class levels for determining your overall level, making you a level 2 creature (lets say you're a fighter for this example). So you're a half-fiend fighter 1, and everyone else is level 2, and you're all CR 1.
At the mid-way point between level 2 and 3 (as determined by everyone else in the party), you gain another level, making you a half-fiend fighter 2. Then, when the rest of the party gains 3rd level, you do as well, because by this point your abilities from being a half-fiend have worn off their cool factor (or so the Bestiary tells us). From this point forward, you gain levels normally.
So in your examples, by the time you reach that level (6th, 7th, 10th) you have the same class levels and the standard races.
Now, this *is* complicated some by the half-fiend template itself. *If* you (or your GM) feel that the CR adjustments based on Hit Dice of the half-fiend template should be respected, you just repeat this process at the Hit Dice earmarks mentioned in the half-fiend template.
Specifically, when you have 5 Hit Dice, your CR increases an additional +1, making you a half-fiend fighter 5 (CR 6) and the rest of your party is still CR 4. At this point, you don't gain 6th level until the rest of the party is mid-way between levels 6 and 7. Then when the party gains 7th, so do you and you continue to advance as normal. (Ignore the lines about repeating this process a number of times equal to half your CR, because you already *did* that at 2nd level.) Finally, you would repeat this process again at 11 Hit Dice.
Yeh, 1/2 fiend, 1/2 human. thanks for the quick response.
there's 2 things that make it confusing, the CR jumping to +2 at 5 HD and +3 at 11 HD, and the 'gaining a new lvl between 2nd and 3rd, and so on.
firstly, you can only gain an extra lvl equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Half-Fiend is CR +1, therefore 0. Don't you have to wait until you're 5 HD (CR +2).
secondly, it's CR +1, so if you're 2nd (class) lvl, wouldn't you be 3rd lvl?
thanks for clarifying :)
Assuming you're a half-fiend/half-core race, you're doing it wrong.
When the party is 2nd level (the recommened introduction point for a monster PC of this CR):
You are CR 1. You treat your "monster" CR as class levels for determining your overall level, making you a level 2 creature (lets say you're a fighter for this example). So you're a half-fiend fighter 1, and everyone else is level 2, and you're all CR 1.At the mid-way point between level 2 and 3 (as determined by everyone else in the party), you gain another level, making you a half-fiend fighter 2. Then, when the rest of the party gains 3rd level, you do as well, because by this point your abilities from being a half-fiend have worn off their cool factor (or so the Bestiary tells us). From this point forward, you gain levels normally.
So in your examples, by the time you reach that level (6th, 7th, 10th) you have the same class levels and the standard races.
Now, this *is* complicated some by the half-fiend template itself. *If* you (or your GM) feel that the CR adjustments based on Hit Dice of the half-fiend template should be respected, you just repeat this process at the Hit Dice earmarks mentioned in the half-fiend template.
Specifically, when you have 5 Hit Dice, your CR increases an additional +1, making you a half-fiend fighter 5 (CR 5) and the rest of your party is still CR 4. At this point, you don't gain 6th level until the rest of the party is mid-way between levels 6 and 7. Then when the party gains 7th, so do you and you continue to advance as normal. (Ignore the lines about repeating this process a number of times equal to half your CR, because you already *did* that at 2nd level.) Finally, you would repeat this process again at 11 Hit Dice.
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Yeh, 1/2 fiend, 1/2 human. thanks for the quick response.
there's 2 things that make it confusing, the CR jumping to +2 at 5 HD and +3 at 11 HD, and the 'gaining a new lvl between 2nd and 3rd, and so on.
firstly, you can only gain an extra lvl equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Half-Fiend is CR +1, therefore 0. Don't you have to wait until you're 5 HD (CR +2).
You repeat the process of extra levels that many times. It's implied that it always happens at least once.
secondly, it's CR +1, so if you're 2nd (class) lvl, wouldn't you be 3rd lvl?
It is my belief that the "CR counts as levels" thing is *only* in reference to determining where you stand in comparison to the rest of the party.
Also, the more I think about it the more I'm pretty sure you shouldn't recalculate CR as you advance; the fact that it's a template (which adds to CR rather than remains static), only creates a perpetual level adding-machine (which I now realize is the real question behind your post).
The problem lies in the mechanic being reliant on a static CR, rather than a CR booster (like a template). I think the best way to handle this is treat the template as though it were a CR equal to whatever it would normally boost the CR by, so in the case of a 1st-level human, CR 1. If the game is starting at level 5-10, CR 2. If the game is starting at level 11+, CR 3.
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I thought about that problem once myself and decided that you get one of two options: Base it solely off of the racial hit die, or figure out how to adjust it as they level.
If you choose the latter route it actually ends up simpler than you might imagine. They have a CR of +1 until they hit the +3 point at which point it becomes +2. The reason for this is that by the time they hit the +2 point they have already become high enough level to buy off that point and so it has no effect.
To elaborate:
At level 2 you're +1 from half-fiend and +1 from level. At level 5 you're +1 from half-fiend (haven't hit the +2 point yet, still only 4 HD) and +4 from level.
At level 6 you now have 5 HD, but normally a CR change of +2 would have been reduced between the 2nd and 3rd class level, which you have already attained. Thus you are +1 from half-fiend (reduced from +2) and +5 from levels.
At level 12 you gain your 11th class level, thus gaining the 11th HD and making the normal adjustment +3. You can only buy one point off of a +3 and have already done so, so it's a +2. This means that when you hit 12th level you magically become equivalent to 13th level. +2 from half-fiend, +11 from levels.
The last paragraph is where you hit an issue. They gain two levels worth of power for the price of one, then gain nothing for two levels. At that stage, however, I doubt this will impact the party dynamic much and I would personally just let it happen. If you have a problem with it, you can deal with it by delaying when they get the adjustments from the template until they hit the XP needed for 13th level. Doing it the other direction isn't plausible as the template increase follows the HD increase, not the other way around.
PS: This assumes that the part in the bestiary discussing CR reduction was based on the number of CRs gained after the base creature's. In other words, only class levels count for determining whether you "buy off" a point of CR.
</long-windedness>
Thus you are +1 from half-fiend (reduced from +2) and +5 from levels.
PS: This assumes that the part in the bestiary discussing CR reduction was based on the number of CRs gained after the base creature's. In other words, only class levels count for determining whether you "buy off" a point of CR.</long-windedness>
I don't see where it actually says that there is a 'CR reduction'. That was the LA 'buy-back' system of 3.5. p.314 of the Beastiary says that you gain a level, not that you lose a CR adjustment.
The way i see it, when you gain a lvl, you gain XP, you simply can't gain a lvl without XP. So when the CR goes from +1 to +2 (and +3), you gain xp that at that lvl would put you up a lvl. You don't actually gain a lvl and in fact have lost the ability to gain that lvl as a class.
*failed will save against confusion*
If someone from Paizo could please clarify the wording on p.313-314 of the Beastiary I would be most appreciative.
I understand that James & Co. are reluctant to give a definitive ruling on the subject, but all i'm asking is a clarification of the guidelines that are written....please?
I just read some templates - I would never allow players to use them, in my games they would be for NPCs only.
Let´s compare dragon disciple and half-dragon template:
-dragon disciple has requirements since it is a prestige class
-4 levels of dragon disciple give you, if you had no sorcerer levels before:
CL +3, BAB +3 (additional +2 through strength bonus), Fort +2 Ref +1 Will +2, natural armor +3, claws, breath weapon, str +4, bloodline feat
-2 levels of dragon disciple give you:
CL +1, BAB +1, Fort, Ref, Will +1, claws, natural armor +1, bloodline feat
-the template counts as 2 levels since it has CR +2 and gives:
BAB +4 through str +8, fort +3 through con +6, breath weapon, claws, int +2, cha +2, wings (!), darkvision, natural armor +4
all in all, having the template is much better than 2 levels of dragon disciple - comparable to 4 levels of dragon disciple if you´re no primary caster but you could take 2 levels of disciple and the template in the same time.
after all: if you are no caster, you would most likely choose the template over the prestige class. In my opinion, it just doesn´t fit.
If the players want to play a half-fiend or a half-dragon or become a lich or whatever, I would allow them to take a custom race or prestige class rather than using templates (I mean, a tiefling is basically a half-fiend and you could modify bleach masters or the like for liches, convert dragonborn from 3.5 or 4.0 to PF)
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I just read some templates - I would never allow players to use them, in my games they would be for NPCs only.
Let´s compare dragon disciple and half-dragon template:-dragon disciple has requirements since it is a prestige class
-4 levels of dragon disciple give you, if you had no sorcerer levels before:
CL +3, BAB +3 (additional +2 through strength bonus), Fort +2 Ref +1 Will +2, natural armor +3, claws, breath weapon, str +4, bloodline feat
-2 levels of dragon disciple give you:
CL +1, BAB +1, Fort, Ref, Will +1, claws, natural armor +1, bloodline feat
-the template counts as 2 levels since it has CR +2 and gives:
BAB +4 through str +8, fort +3 through con +6, breath weapon, claws, int +2, cha +2, wings (!), darkvision, natural armor +4all in all, having the template is much better than 2 levels of dragon disciple - comparable to 4 levels of dragon disciple if you´re no primary caster but you could take 2 levels of disciple and the template in the same time.
after all: if you are no caster, you would most likely choose the template over the prestige class. In my opinion, it just doesn´t fit.
If the players want to play a half-fiend or a half-dragon or become a lich or whatever, I would allow them to take a custom race or prestige class rather than using templates (I mean, a tiefling is basically a half-fiend and you could modify bleach masters or the like for liches, convert dragonborn from 3.5 or 4.0 to PF)
A couple things wrong with the above...
1) The half-dragon template does NOT give BAB. BAB+4 and to-hit +4 is very very different. See multiple attacks per round and feat/prestige requirements.2) It is CR+2 (minimum 3), meaning that a regular player race taking this template will have to sacrifice 3 levels rather than 2.
3) They do not gain feats, skills or hit points for this sacrifice, which are decently major features that could cripple a character early on.
4) They do not get a breath weapon because they don't have racial HD (again, assuming it's applied to a base race)
So they do get a decent amount for what they pay for it, but it is by no means obscene.
A couple things wrong with the above...
1) The half-dragon template does NOT give BAB. BAB+4 and to-hit +4 is very very different. See multiple attacks per round and feat/prestige requirements.
2) It is CR+2 (minimum 3), meaning that a regular player race taking this template will have to sacrifice 3 levels rather than 2.
3) They do not gain feats, skills or hit points for this sacrifice, which are decently major features that could cripple a character early on.
4) They do not get a breath weapon because they don't have racial HD (again, assuming...
1) Agreed.
2) If it's CR +2 then a 3rd lvl character would have 1 class lvl. = sacrificing 2 class lvls.3) You're right that a template character doesn't get skill or hit points. However, feats are character lvl dependant, so in the 3rd lvl example, you'd have 1 feat for 1st lvl, and 1 feat for 3rd.
4) You got me there, never thought about that.
Ksorkrax, that's fine if you wouldn't allow it, that's personal preference. Our group believes that anything the PC's can do, Monsters can do better. That aside, like i said in the OP, this thread wasn't intended as a discussion of whether or not it's a good thing. Just clarification of the guidelines written on p.313-314 of the Beastiary.
Can Mr. Jacobs or someone from Paizo, please throw in? I'm considering posting on the 'Official Answers' thread.
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A couple things wrong with the above...
1) The half-dragon template does NOT give BAB. BAB+4 and to-hit +4 is very very different. See multiple attacks per round and feat/prestige requirements.
2) It is CR+2 (minimum 3), meaning that a regular player race taking this template will have to sacrifice 3 levels rather than 2.
3) They do not gain feats, skills or hit points for this sacrifice, which are decently major features that could cripple a character early on.
4) They do not get a breath weapon because they don't have racial HD (again, assuming...1) Agreed.
2) If it's CR +2 then a 3rd lvl character would have 1 class lvl. = sacrificing 2 class lvls.
3) You're right that a template character doesn't get skill or hit points. However, feats are character lvl dependant, so in the 3rd lvl example, you'd have 1 feat for 1st lvl, and 1 feat for 3rd.
4) You got me there, never thought about that.Ksorkrax, that's fine if you wouldn't allow it, that's personal preference. Our group believes that anything the PC's can do, Monsters can do better. That aside, like i said in the OP, this thread wasn't intended as a discussion of whether or not it's a good thing. Just clarification of the guidelines written on p.313-314 of the Beastiary.
Can Mr. Jacobs or someone from Paizo, please throw in? I'm considering posting on the 'Official Answers' thread.
Correction:
2) I'm pretty sure that the character became a half-dragon before they became a fighter, so the adjustment should be +3. At least, that's how I interpret it. I could be wrong on this one.3) Though I could be wrong on this one as well, I'm pretty sure that the number of feats you get is based on HD. As an arbitrary example, the griffon is a CR4 creature with 5 HD. If it was based upon CR the creature would have 2 feats (1st and 3rd). If it was based on HD it would be 3 feats (1st, 3rd and 5th HD). The creature has 3 feats, which seems to indicate HD is used rather than CR. This is how it was done in 3.5 so I don't see why this would change.
To translate: If you don't gain a hit dice (whether by race or by class), you don't gain a feat.
2) “Half-dragon” is an inherited or acquired template" (p.170 Beastiary)
So if you took it as an inherited template, i guess you're right. But most people would take it after 1st lvl.
3)Table 3–1: Character Advancement
and Level-Dependent Bonuses
Character Experience Point Total Ability
Level Slow Medium Fast Feats Score
1st — — — 1st —
2nd 3,000 2,000 1,300 — —
3rd 7,500 5,000 3,300 2nd —
4th 14,000 9,000 6,000 — 1st
5th 23,000 15,000 10,0003rd —
and so on. (p.30 Core RB)
It does say 'character' lvl, not 'class' lvl or Hit Die.
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2) “Half-dragon” is an inherited or acquired template" (p.170 Beastiary)
So if you took it as an inherited template, i guess you're right. But most people would take it after 1st lvl.3)Table 3–1: Character Advancement
and Level-Dependent Bonuses
Character Experience Point Total Ability
Level Slow Medium Fast Feats Score
1st — — — 1st —
2nd 3,000 2,000 1,300 — —
3rd 7,500 5,000 3,300 2nd —
4th 14,000 9,000 6,000 — 1st
5th 23,000 15,000 10,0003rd —
and so on. (p.30 Core RB)It does say 'character' lvl, not 'class' lvl or Hit Die.
That it may, but that chart presumes that you are a base race gaining a player class, hence why it is in the "classes" section and not in the bestiary. Otherwise that griffon in the above example would only have 2 feats (and no, none of those three are bonus feats).
Some other creatures that follow HD and not CR [CR/HD/Feats]: Hyrda[4/5/3], Astral Deva[14/15/8], Planetar[16/17/9], Solar[23/22/11], the list goes on.