| H |
I love all the ideas here I've seen and the options for monstrous PCs in the Bestiary, and generally like them. There are a lot of *easy* fixes, just by looking at older rules for a vast majority of the monsters in there. I like that HD mean less as you get higher level, but the problem of frontloading is always the main issue. Bugbears, goblinoids and several other races (especially my favorite, the Gnoll) can be done with about five minutes of your time...and JUST GLANCING at the old 3.5 material which I know ALL OF YOU HAVE.
One of the biggest issues I find is the use of monsters that you would *think* would work well, but due to one keystone ability, throw the whole thing out the window.
My issue is the Medusa. Now, I love Medusa, and the portrayal of it in the new Bestiary. That Fortitude save or permanent petrification is a major whammy, however! All my thoughts of making that character go somewhat the way of the Dodo, as the DM gets scared I will overuse such a powerful ability.
(Honestly, why would I not use it if I'm a Medusa? It's a great fear inducing tool after all, and the threat of being petrified by a legendary monster like her would be enough to stop any politician in his boots..aside from the societal penalties that might give.)
Medusa are CR 7. Wizards can petrify people at this point, but not all day long. They also have a pretty healthy amount of HD (8!) But other than this, they have few abilities which make them truly fearsome.
How do you balance this with the new rules honestly? I'm looking for interesting replies and rules cranking to get this to work out well. They're specifically built to hide themselves and actually *not* go around making tons of statues because then it would become a 'zomg, Medusa hunt!'
| Seldriss |
I don't recall if the medusa has über stat modifiers, but anyway i don't think the attributes are the issue here.
One way to keep a medusa character in balance would be to give her a limited access to her petrification power and poison, progressing with levels.
Of course, one way to do that is to use racial levels, as per Savage Species, where the Medusa is given as an option.
| mdt |
If I were going to use it in my game, I would just modify ALL Medusa's to have a number of rounds of use per day equal to HD/2 + CHA modifier.
This would give a CR 7 encountered Medusa 7 rounds per day, which would make them pretty much the same as the unmodified one when you encounter one (still having 7 uses). A PC would have limited uses, more than a wizard of course, but they're also giving up 7 class levels (to start with). So that's not a bad tradeoff. Plus, they have to be careful not to stone their own allies, so that limits it's usefulness (gaze attacks affect anyone in line of sight unless that's been changed, although allies have a 50% chance to not have to make a save).
| H |
The Medusa's stats are honestly pretty tame. Her only *really* startling point is the stone gaze. I had created a template/level progression in 3.5, allowing her 'gaze' to grow working similar to Daze, Daze monster in Active/passive uses, starting at 3-5 times a day and eventually growing to at will usages. As she caps out, I let her petrify more and more permanently, until she reaches a full 30ft in range, and it can be both active and passive like normal gaze attacks.
All in all its an extremely useful ability, but it's not the be-all-end-all. However, it is the ability that the DM usually blanches at in playability against encounters. The saving throw isnt honestly that high - it's problem is you can screw your PC buddies by keeping the 'passive' gaze effect on, forcing them to fort save or petrify every round :) and if you run out there all like 'lol gonna make all the enemies stone' you suddenly became the big huge glaring target and you get dropped.
FAST.
'S%~~ this (expletive deleted) is turning us to stone. KILL.'
A Medusa PC would have to be careful and only use 'active' gazes as standard actions, nailing who they chose to unless they thought they could get away with AOEing folks. Pumping their save DC would be of course needed for this to be useful, and they'd be giving up a lot.
Abilities -- Stat buffs. (+4 Dex, +8 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha)
8 Hit dice (Fighter BaB) OK saves all around, can't be flanked, +4 Perception. Darkvision 60ft, A nifty natural attack that poisons (good but not AMAZING) -- and their stone gaze.
| H |
If I were going to use it in my game, I would just modify ALL Medusa's to have a number of rounds of use per day equal to HD/2 + CHA modifier.
This would give a CR 7 encountered Medusa 7 rounds per day, which would make them pretty much the same as the unmodified one when you encounter one (still having 7 uses). A PC would have limited uses, more than a wizard of course, but they're also giving up 7 class levels (to start with). So that's not a bad tradeoff. Plus, they have to be careful not to stone their own allies, so that limits it's usefulness (gaze attacks affect anyone in line of sight unless that's been changed, although allies have a 50% chance to not have to make a save).
Line of Sight for Medusa is 30ft all around, thanks to their vision. Hmm, I like your general limited use of it. I might consider that, though make it full on HD+Cha modifier, or Con modifier, whichever their save is based off of.
| mdt |
mdt wrote:Line of Sight for Medusa is 30ft all around, thanks to their vision. Hmm, I like your general limited use of it. I might consider that, though make it full on HD+Cha modifier, or Con modifier, whichever their save is based off of.If I were going to use it in my game, I would just modify ALL Medusa's to have a number of rounds of use per day equal to HD/2 + CHA modifier.
This would give a CR 7 encountered Medusa 7 rounds per day, which would make them pretty much the same as the unmodified one when you encounter one (still having 7 uses). A PC would have limited uses, more than a wizard of course, but they're also giving up 7 class levels (to start with). So that's not a bad tradeoff. Plus, they have to be careful not to stone their own allies, so that limits it's usefulness (gaze attacks affect anyone in line of sight unless that's been changed, although allies have a 50% chance to not have to make a save).
It's Charisma based.
| mdt |
A Medusa PC would have to be careful and only use 'active' gazes as standard actions, nailing who they chose to unless they thought they could get away with AOEing folks. Pumping their save DC would be of course needed for this to be useful, and they'd be giving up a lot.Abilities -- Stat buffs. (+4 Dex, +8 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha)
8 Hit dice (Fighter BaB) OK saves all around, can't be flanked, +4 Perception. Darkvision 60ft, A nifty natural attack that poisons (good but not AMAZING) -- and their stone gaze.
She can't use only 'active' gazes. If you read the section under gazes, it says you can concentrate on one person in the area of effect to force them to make 2 saves. It doesn't say you can limit it to one target. At least how I read it. So if she uses it, it's everyone in 30 feet of her gaze. On the other hand, she has 360 perception because of the snakes, but her gaze attack is not 360 degree's. So you have to use a cone for the gaze (as I understand it) out to 30 feet (like a dragon's breath weapon).
| H |
Ah the makeup was just a gaze progression. In effect, her 'gaze' if unveiled hits everyone in 30 ft radius, not just a cone at the beginning of their turns, and as a standard action I can make a gaze attack, forcing at least one person to make two saves. That wasnt the issue though, yeah I found it was Cha based after, thanks MDT.
I'm still a 3.5er, I havent completely converted to Pathfinder yet but I use a grand majority of their stuff because its mostly fantastic. I'm just interested to see how to integrate it better.
| mdt |
Ah the makeup was just a gaze progression. In effect, her 'gaze' if unveiled hits everyone in 30 ft radius, not just a cone at the beginning of their turns, and as a standard action I can make a gaze attack, forcing at least one person to make two saves. That wasnt the issue though, yeah I found it was Cha based after, thanks MDT.
I'm still a 3.5er, I havent completely converted to Pathfinder yet but I use a grand majority of their stuff because its mostly fantastic. I'm just interested to see how to integrate it better.
Ah, ok, I didn't realize you were talking about your custom race. Yeah, you can make it 360 if you want, that would severely up the CR though as you can't avoid the gaze then.
| H |
oh, No no. It was a little of both. Sorry if I was unclear.
In 3.5, everyone in a 30 ft radius has to save vs a 'passive' gaze. Then you can pick *one* person within 30 ft if you want to attempt to petrify as a standard action. The gaze rules really havent changed much at all from 3.5 to pathfinder.
There are a ton of things immune to petrification though. Like undead. Freakin' undead and their immunity to everything. And Fort saves get really, REALLY high as the levels go on, as opposed to other saves.
Set
|
As a lower level PC option, start with the power to 'petrify' people with dread, causing them to be dazed or whatever, with the effects working as Daze Monster and counting as a fear effect, as well as a mind-affecting effect, so that those immune to (or resistant to) fear would gain those bonuses against the horrifying gaze of a 'low-level' medusa. She'd only be able to affect a person once / 24 hours with this gaze, but be able to whip it out a fair number of times / day (Cha mod + HD?), her face contorting, her snakes writhing and hissing to trigger this 'Beetlejuice' effect.
At 3-5 HD, her gaze causes a stiffening of the flesh (slow spell for X rounds after the Daze wears off). Not until 7 HD does she get an actual flesh-to-stone gaze.
Same sort of deal WotC did with the Raptoran, not allowing the winged dudes to have honest-to-Pelor *flight* until they were 5 HD and the DM was already going to have to deal with flying PCs thanks to the Fly spell.
You could even rationalize / justify that her gaze doesn't reach full 'monster medusa' levels until 14 HD or something, as her delving into class levels has caused her 'monster powers' to take a temporary backseat to her training as a sorceress / ranger-assassin / high priestess of Lamashtu, whatever. At 7 HD, the effects of her gaze might be temporary (saves each round to break free) or only usable for X rounds / day. As levels progress, the limitations are removed, until the saves only come once / minute, or once / day, or she can activate the full power of her gaze for minutes / day equal to her HD / character level or whatever. In these cases, she would *still* be able to use her 'lesser' petrification gaze power, to Slow or Daze a foe, instead of Flesh to Stone, giving her some gaze potential even when her Flesh to Stone power is exhausted for the day.
Other racial abilities that seem a bit much, such as high levels of natural armor or the venom of her snakes, could similarly be doled out as character levels increase, with her snakes starting out non-venomous and her natural armor being a paltry +1 at 1st level. As she grows in power and wisdom, her scales harden and the venom of her serpents matures, possibly staggered to arrive on levels where her gaze doesn't see an upgrade. She'd still be higher power than an elf or gnome or whatever, but would be playable from 1st level, and you could mitigate the growing imbalance somewhat by requiring her to use some of her Feats to unlock certain levels of power, or to use a slower XP progression than the PCs who are playing less powerful races. (Or, to go the carrot direction, instead of the stick direction, allow the players using less powerful races some bonus 'racial feats' that give them abilities that make them more 'elf-y' or 'gnome-y', pillaging old books like Races and Powers from 2nd edition or the Advanced Players Guide from Green Ronin (3e) for ideas.)