Hey all,
I'm getting ready to run a Cleric with the Protection domain and I've noticed in the Granted Power description that it states that you recieve a +1 Resistance bonus to your saves and that the bonus increases by +1 for every five levels you possess.
Shouldn't that read "For every five Cleric levels you possess"?
I've checked the errata and this was not updated there.
Has there been an official ruling on this anywhere?
If not, could we get one?
Not saying I disagree with you, but just to play Devil's Advocate here.
Where are you getting this information from?
To quote from page 31:
"The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
(emphasis mine)
This resistance bonus is in addition to the domain powers, which do state to use your cleric level. Several domains grant this "oh, by the way you get this in addition to your domain powers" ability, but Protection is the only one that mentions using your levels. The others are bonus feats, class skills, or a save DC bonus.
All Class abilities that say +whatever per Class Level, or # per day per Class Level, specifically refere to that Class Level, not character level. Unless they say othrwise.
But the description doesn't say "class level", it just says "level". If it had said class level I wouldn't be haved posted my question.
Alright here you go this is a classic case of "I didn't really read what the book said I just skipped through and assumed all that other stuff was boring and not worth reading, and now I have questions cause I didn't bother to read."
Page 31, First paragraph, 3rd sentence:
"The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
It's not "missing" it's not "unclear" it's simply something people don't want to read and skip over in their rush and assumption that they know what's going on and therefore the designers are idiots.
*This rant brought to you by too many people not actually reading the book, and then asking things the book specifically covers explicitly -- and a healthy dose of pain from recent surgery combined with pain meds.*
Alright here you go this is a classic case of "I didn't really read what the book said I just skipped through and assumed all that other stuff was boring and not worth reading, and now I have questions cause I didn't bother to read."
Speaking of people who didn't bother to read something... apparently you didn't bother to read his reply, in which he quoted the exact line you did, and in which you seem to have missed the most relevant word, most.
The 3.5 guidelines were very explicit, and Pathfinder hasn't done anything to change them (so far as I know). If an ability says "class level" then it means only your levels in that class, if it says "level" then it means total character level.
That said, the Protection domain ability seems like it might be a typo, and should be class level not level.
EDIT: Actually, after carefully looking through the domains, I think maybe it is meant to be based on total level, not class level. All of the other domains either have a granted power that's just descriptive fluff, or one that grants you a bonus regardless of whether or not you multiclass out of cleric, like an added class skill or a feat.
No No No and a thousand times no.
Unless it specifically states otherwise then it is class level only. Exception based -- In most cases is this a case? Yes does it spell out an exception? No then it is like most cases.
In FACT that line specifically tells us that in the case that it refers to "level" in a class ability we are to assume that it is a class level not a character level. It's spelled out specifically that in most cases (meaning those that don't give an exception) that you use "class level" where it says "level" in a class ability.
It would be slightly less frustrating if it wasn't something covered a half dozen times already, and specifically covered by the rules already.
It doesn't matter what other domains state in their powers, unless an exception is given you are to assume it is like "most" cases and based on class level.
At first I was bothered by the tone of your response but then I shrugged it off.
Assumption-The act of taking for granted, or supposing a thing without proof; a supposition; an unwarrantable claim.
Let's look at your response.
Unless it specifically states otherwise then it is class level only
It can open to interpetation that it does specifically state otherwise by using the word level instead of class level or cleric level as every other granted power in the Domain section does.
In FACT that line specifically tells us that in the case that it refers to "level" in a class ability we are to assume that it is a class level not a character level.
If something is specifcally stated then there would be no need to assume anything (much like your assumption that I haven't read the rule book).
It's spelled out specifically that in most cases (meaning those that don't give an exception) that you use "class level" where it says "level" in a class ability.
How do you know that the use of the word level wasn't used to indicate an exception to the rule? Now it is you who are assuming what the intent of the designers were.
It would be slightly less frustrating if it wasn't something covered a half dozen times already, and specifically covered by the rules already.
I did a search of the message boards for this question and only came up with one thread covering this topic, and it wasn't adequately resolved there either.
Until a designer chimes in and states unequivocally what their intent was, this will be open to debate.
Look if you don't want to apply basic logic and follow exactly where the rules read that's your thing, and have fun waiting for your "offical" answer.
However when the book specifically tells you the expection to the general assumption that level refers to character level is class abilities and you are asking about the reference to the word "level" in a class ability and then find where in the book it states that references to level in a class ability is a reference to class level, and someone points this out to you, you shouldn't play dense.
It spells it out for you. Yes it doesn't say class level in one spot. However:
1. The spot is in a class ability.
2. The book tells you that a class ability with a reference to level in it is a reference to class level.
AND this isn't the only place this happens in the domains:
Air domain level 6 power refers to levels when it gives the resistance, but doesn't state class level.
Artifice domain level 8 ability does the same.
Community domain level 8 again only references level.
Earth domain level 8.
So on and so forth.
You've read the book, you know what it says, it says exactly what I've told you but you don't like it. That's fine house rule it and move on.
I could give examples like uncanny dodge where it has the exception line built in but I doubt you would accept that as "proof" that when an exception is in place it is specifically stated.
Here's what it boils down to:
1. The book specifically tells you how to handle vague references to level.
2. You have a vague reference to level.
3. Without an exception built into the ability (explicitly) you apply the general rule, due to the fact that it's the general rule.
4. You apply what the book states since it is the general rule.
Look if you don't want to apply basic logic and follow exactly where the rules read that's your thing, and have fun waiting for your "offical" answer.
Abe, please stop being an insufferable jerk. No one asked for an "official" answer, they just disagreed with your answer (and with your tone). EDIT: My apologies, someone did ask for an official answer and I missed it. The rest I stand behind though.
However when the book specifically tells you the expection to the general assumption that level refers to character level is class abilities and you are asking about the reference to the word "level" in a class ability and then find where in the book it states that references to level in a class ability is a reference to class level, and someone points this out to you, you shouldn't play dense.
The book says nothing of the sort. The section you're quoting makes two statements of fact, first that there are some effects that "are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class" and then continues by saying that most class abilities are based on the class levels alone. This isn't a guideline or rule, it's just a general statement giving a synopsis of how most of the class vs. character abilities are laid out so a new player can get a quick idea of how multiclassing works.
It's a good guideline when you're unsure, certainly, but it most certainly does not "specifically tell us that in the case that it refers to "level" in a class ability we are to assume that it is a class level not a character level."
Does the protection domain effect work off of class level? Probably, I'll give you that, but there's no reason to be a complete jerk to someone that just wanted to get some clarification on something.
|
Not saying I disagree with you, but just to play Devil's Advocate here.
Where are you getting this information from?
Jason B told me. Not directly, but that the standing rule it, all class abilites that work off of "level" refer specifically to the Class Level that grants said ability. Basically Level and class Level are the same thing, unless it says otherwise, or is not based off of a a specific class.
A notable exception are some of the oracle abilities, which are specifically Character Level.
please stop being an insufferable jerk
Can I get an Amen.
If you look at the first line of my reply to Backett, I'm not disagreeing with his interpretation I'm just saying that it could be interpretated another way and wanted to know where he got his information.He has stated that it came from Jason, albeit third hand, is good enough.
As an added data bit, during the Beta the Protection Domain power read "+1 per 5 caster levels". The change to just cleric levels (as almost all domain and school powers switched to from caster) was significant.