Does Empower give you more missles/rays/ etc?
Or does it only affect damage dice?
Reworded, are damage dice considered the only variable numeric effects, or is number of magic missles, rays or what have you also considered a variable numeric effect?
It only affects variable numbers i.e. the dice roll so take your magic missile dice and multiply the result by 1.5
You'll quickly see why hardly anyone bothers empowering the spell.
Except Sorcerers. Keeps them from having to use up limited spells known just to do more damage.
You'll quickly see why hardly anyone bothers empowering the spell.Some spells are much better to empower than others. Like Scorching Ray. An effective 18d6 vs 12d6 beats the dice/lvl curve by 2 dice.
but no extra ray also?
but no extra ray also?You'll quickly see why hardly anyone bothers empowering the spell.Some spells are much better to empower than others. Like Scorching Ray. An effective 18d6 vs 12d6 beats the dice/lvl curve by 2 dice.
No, because that's not a 'variable, numeric effect' of the spell.
You can argue that all level-dependent aspects of spellcasting are 'variable', but that way lies madness (see applying negative levels threads for examples). I would say that random, rather than variable, would have been an easier term to digest here.
The number of rays is not a numeric variable, it is a static number based upon your caster level, thus empower spell doesn't affect it because empower spell only affects numeric variables. an 11th level sorcerer using an empowered scorching ray spell would get 3 rays each of which would deal 4d6*1.5 points of damage if they hit (Note that while this is numerically the same as rolling 6d6 you do not actually roll 6d6, you roll the normal 4d6 and multiply it by 1.5 by the RAW).
Now some ask if a 5th level cleric empowers a Cure Light Wounds, does it heal (1d8+5)*1.5 or does it heal (1d8*1.5)+5, quick!
The second one. The 1d8 is a variable, whereas the +5 is a static caster level dependant number. Basically, what it means is "Anything you have to roll the dice for, roll them, and multiply it by 1.5."
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The funny thing is, both Lazarx and Beorn gave similar answers for different reasons. Not to put words into Beorn the Bear's.. um.. maw, I'd wager he wouldn't agree with Lazarx's interpretation, as in his example the +5 wasn't augmented because it was a caster level based constant, but the "+1" part of the "1d4+1" variable in Magic Missile isn't at all caster level dependant, but a flat number/missile.
And I was just trying to further resurrect the same never-clarified arguement from an earlier thread, just like the OP's other thread about "official" rulings did for about 5 other similar questions.
Like they say, if you gotta explain the joke.... *sigh*
I actually disagree with Beorn the Bear... by my reading of the rules the numeric variable of a caster level 5 cure light wounds is 6-13, and thus it should all be affected, similarly the numeric variable of a magic missile is 2-5, and thus it should all be affected.
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I actually disagree with Beorn the Bear... by my reading of the rules the numeric variable of a caster level 5 cure light wounds is 6-13, and thus it should all be affected, similarly the numeric variable of a magic missile is 2-5, and thus it should all be affected.It's not a variable if you can look up the correct value on a chart. You may as well argue the bonus from Shield of Faith is variable...
So, when a cleric casts Cure Moderate Wounds, you can look up on a chart and know exactly how much he heals?
(cwslyclgh and I are in total agreement here, but that and $4 will get you a coffee at $tarbux)
It's not a variable if you can look up the correct value on a chart.
Uh, yes, it is. It's a variable if the number changes.
10.
Mathematics, Computers.
a.
a quantity or function that may assume any given value or set of values.
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So, when a cleric casts Cure Moderate Wounds, you can look up on a chart and know exactly how much he heals?
Of course not. CMW is a D+X function where X=CL(lim10) and D=2d8. X is only a variable where CL is unknown or a variable. Once you cast the spell, CL is a discrete value, and the only remaining variable is D (2d8). That is the value that is going to be multiplied by 1.5.
Unless, of course, you think that Shield of Faith can be empowered.
Shield of Faith is a straw-man, and not even a good one. There is no random die roll involved at all.
Magic Missile does 2-5 points of damage per missile. That is a random range, and empowered should do (2-5)*1.5 damage. Cure Mod Wounds cures 3-26 points of damage. I understand you consider "variable" to mean "unknowable until Schrodinger's Cat rolls the dice", but the way I read Empower Spell is "cast the spell, roll the dice, multiply by 1.5". The feat modifies the spell, and in the case of Cure X Wounds spells, the CL dependant part of the healing is part of the overall spell that gets modified.
But, as I've already said, I don't intend to sway anyone's opinion on this, I merely brought it up as a joke. But apparantly, there's nothing funny about math.
1+X=2 does not contain a true variable because there is only 1 solution to the problem.
Aside from being irrelevant to the discussion at hand, this is quite possibly the silliest argument I've yet seen on these boards.
They are placeholders for sets, out of which discrete values can be solved for, but none being more correct than the others.
{1} is a fully realized, completely legal set. For that matter, so is {}.
That's really beside the point, though, because cure light wounds and such are X+Y=Z equations, not 1+X=2 equations. Both the result of the die roll and the caster level are variables, and the end result isn't known before you solve the variables.
Take a Wild Mage, for example. Their caster level varies every time they cast a spell. Does this mean they magically get extra benefits from Empower Spell that no other spellcaster gets?
Wouldn't that be a great boon to spells like Wall of Fire, Fireshield, and Ray of Enfeeblement? These spells are mostly CL dependant, and the dice are small.Magic Missile does 2-5 points of damage per missile. That is a random range, and empowered should do (2-5)*1.5 damage. Cure Mod Wounds cures 3-26 points of damage. I understand you consider "variable" to mean "unknowable until Schrodinger's Cat rolls the dice", but the way I read Empower Spell is "cast the spell, roll the dice, multiply by 1.5". The feat modifies the spell, and in the case of Cure X Wounds spells, the CL dependant part of the healing is part of the overall spell that gets modified.
Too much of a boon, IMHO. And let's not forget the Maximize Spell metamagic feat (which should theoretically be better than Empower Spell, in most cases).
Empower Spell uses a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Maximize Spell uses a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Now, let's pick a Cure Moderate Wounds with a caster level 10.
Maximize Spell uses a 5th level slot to cure (8+8+10)= 26 hp.
Using Empower Spell and a 4th level slot, which result do you think would be more balanced with the effect above:
(2d8 x 1.5) +10 (average (9 x 1.5) + 10 = 23,5) or (2d8+10) x 1.5 (average 19 x 1.5 = 28.5) ?
Even with just the average result, Empower Spell would give better results than Maximize Spell in the latter case...
Maximize is just a cruddy choice all around. It's never (or very close to never) level-efficient. Using your same comparison, you can either cast a maximized cure moderate wounds to heal 26 HP, or you could cast a breath of life to heal 32.5 HP and possibly bring a dead character back to life. Even the Empower isn't a terribly hot choice, as the empowered cure moderate heals 28.5 vs a cure critical wounds which heals 28 (but is more useful vs undead, as it has +2 DC).
Note that the plain jane cure critical wounds -- a 4th level spell -- heals 2 more hp than the maximized cure moderate wounds.
Maximize is just Otyugh fodder. It's hard to make any kind of valid point by holding up another feat and saying "It's better than Maximize! It must be OP!".
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Wouldn't that be a great boon to spells like Wall of Fire, Fireshield, and Ray of Enfeeblement? These spells are mostly CL dependant, and the dice are small.
Yeah, it is great for those spells. Anything that requires a feat and ups the spell by TWO levels ought to be pretty damn spiffy.
Wall of Fire: 1d4 or 2d4 or 2d6+20 (tops) = 2.5/5/27 av damage
Empowered Wall of Fire: X1.5 = 3.75/7.5/40.5 versus 3.75/7.5/30.5
An extra 3.5 or an extra 13.5. Which is worth a feat and +2 spell levels? 10 points isn't a game-breaker.
Fire Shield: 1d6+15 (max) = 18.5 av damage.
Empowered Fire Shield: 20.25 or 27.75. 7.5 extra damage, for a 6th level slot? Still not fantastic.
Ray of Enfeeblement: 1d6+5 (max)= 8.5 av strength penalty.
Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement: 10.25 vs 12.75. Meh.
"Great Boon"? Hardly. "Vaguely worth the price"? Only slightly less hardly. Not even spiffy, sadly enough.
On a tangent, in an effort to get my players to actualy think of taking metamagic feats, I made it so they are usable 2 times a day with no spell level slot change.
Shield of Faith is a straw-man, and not even a good one. There is no random die roll involved at all.
Actually, this displays a double standard in the understanding of variable effects. Why should caster level dependent effects be considered variable when added to a die roll, and not considered variable when not added to a die roll? The essence of the numeric shift for this value is the same in both cases, only in one a variable modifier is cojoined to it to create a final value.
As for the usefulness of metamagic feats, I find empower and maximize to be most useful in conjunction with the 3.5 feat Metamagic Spell Trigger, where you use extra uses of a spell trigger item in order to apply a metamagic feat to the spell being cast from it, so an empowered fireball would just use up 3 uses of a wand of fireball, instead of using your higher spell slot.
Actually, this displays a double standard in the understanding of variable effects. Why should caster level dependent effects be considered variable when added to a die roll, and not considered variable when not added to a die roll? The essence of the numeric shift for this value is the same in both cases, only in one a variable modifier is cojoined to it to create a final value.
The feat says "All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables."
I'd choose to emphasize EFFECT in that sentence. If the EFFECT contains variable numerics, it's a variable numeric effect. It doesn't matter if it has some non-random variables - only spells without random variables are excluded.
So 1d4+1 is a variable numeric effect. A magic missile has an effect of 1d4+1 damage. A Cure Light Wounds has an effect of at least 1d8+1. You roll the dice, and multiply the EFFECT.
To answer your question above, if there is no die roll, i.e. no randomness, the feat specifically excludes it from being affected - it's a spell 'without random variables'.
Empower spell doesn't say 'multiply the random part of the effect by 1.5 and then add in the non-random part based on your caster level afterwards'. It says the effect of the spell is increased by half - so long as that effect is variable and numeric (as well as randomly variable).
That's my take on it, anyways.
Whichever your DM says. Quick enough?
Now some ask if a 5th level cleric empowers a Cure Light Wounds, does it heal (1d8+5)*1.5 or does it heal (1d8*1.5)+5, quick!
What Paul said.
Though for my money the "variable effect" is 1d8+5 :)
Honestly its one of those niggling things in the rules that a *real* rules compendium or functional FAQ should address. Lord knows we didn't have either with 3x under WOTC, but I have much higher hopes for Paizo.
-James
Hear hear!
-Campbell
Now some ask if a 5th level cleric empowers a Cure Light Wounds, does it heal (1d8+5)*1.5 or does it heal (1d8*1.5)+5, quick!
You will get variation on this (and have).
To my mind you get (1d8+5)*1.5. Arguing that the 5 is static is up there with arguing that at least a result of 1 on a d8 is static (whatever you roll there is at least a value of 1 therein). For example how do you represent a random variable with range 2-9? For my money if they only wished the actual dice multiplied then that's what should have been written.
In the 3x PhB they had an explicit example of magic missile that had you roll (1d4+1)*1.5, but that wasn't made part of the SRD (like all the rest of the examples in the PhB). Its lack in the SRD made it a confusion in 3x on how it should work (until the PhB was brought out, and even then persisted amongst diehards).
Paizo bases their game starting from the 3x SRD and went from there, and that clarification got lost. Further I believe Jason may have stated that he thought it would be 1d4*1.5 +1. Not sure if that was based on something off the cuff, a change for balance reasons (that I don't see offhand), or if I'm misremembering things.
Honestly its one of those niggling things in the rules that a *real* rules compendium or functional FAQ should address. Lord knows we didn't have either with 3x under WOTC, but I have much higher hopes for Paizo.
-James
Is there an FAQ about this issue?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Does Empower give you more missles/rays/ etc?
Or does it only affect damage dice?
Reworded, are damage dice considered the only variable numeric effects, or is number of magic missles, rays or what have you also considered a variable numeric effect?
We will use the cure light spell as the example
In short we need to know if the formula is (1d8+5)X 1.5 or (1d8 X 1.5)+5.I thought this question had been answered, but I can't find the link.
Lord knows we didn't have either with 3x under WOTC, but I have much higher hopes for Paizo.
Under 3.5 the question was answered. A magic missile was (1d4+1) *1.5
Until I see something different i'm going to conclude that pathfinder runs the same way. There's already enough reason not to take metamagic feats as it is.
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Empower Spell: If I use Empower Spell on a spell that has a die roll with a numerical bonus (such as cure moderate wounds), does the feat affect the numerical bonus?
Yes. For example, if you empower cure moderate wounds, the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus.
posted July 2011 | back to top
The FAQ was posted 10 months after BNW post and 10 years before Cayle new post. Nice simmetry.