Sounds similar to E6, freeze the vertical gain (attack bonuses, etc.) and continue the horizontal gain (feats, class features). You get more versatile rather than tougher. Not a bad idea, but not what everyone wants.
That's where it came from. I only recently heard about the E6 idea, and I found it intriguing. I would never seriously attempt to get my group to do E6, but I was discussing the theory with my main (rules) compadre, and he says, "we could do that at 20th". I was like, "....duh....that's what I meant...sheesh". And so we began a 1 hour brainstorming session followed by six hours of character conversion (and continued ideas).
It was great fun, and very energizing. As I said before, we really want to play those characters. And soon we will. Just have to get my other main (not so much crunch) compadre to convert his 28th level Mystic Theurge.....oh boy.
I've heard variations on the stop-progression-at-level-20 before. The big problem I see with it is that you get to a point where the abilities of epic level monsters outstrip the abilities of your PCs. Take the devastation centipede as an example. Under your system, the only time your PCs are going to hit its AC, or save against its poison, are if they roll a 20. Meanwhile, the devastation centipede will hit every time, deal a boat load of damage every time, and the PCs won't be able to absorb it because they won't have the hit points.
Personally, I think epic level monsters are a big part of what makes epic levels feel epic. Take them out, and why bother playing past 20th level? That said, I think your idea is a viable option, and if you want to invest a lot of time and effort on your part, I think you could even rework the current epic level monsters to work within your system.
I've heard variations on the stop-progression-at-level-20 before. The big problem I see with it is that you get to a point where the abilities of epic level monsters outstrip the abilities of your PCs. Take the devastation centipede as an example. Under your system, the only time your PCs are going to hit its AC, or save against its poison, are if they roll a 20. Meanwhile, the devastation centipede will hit every time, deal a boat load of damage every time, and the PCs won't be able to absorb it because they won't have the hit points.
Personally, I think epic level monsters are a big part of what makes epic levels feel epic. Take them out, and why bother playing past 20th level? That said, I think your idea is a viable option, and if you want to invest a lot of time and effort on your part, I think you could even rework the current epic level monsters to work within your system.
Thanks for your comments; I think you might have missed a detail about the effective CR of PCs under this system (+1 CR per 3 levels past 20).
The Devastation Centipede is CR 39...so...by my system, my players would have to be like 70th level to even have a chance. So, I wouldn't use a Devastation Centipede.
More to the point, I wouldn't be using anything from the current ELH, at least not as written. And there are many reasons to play past 20th besides monsters. But you are right, in that creating good challenges above 20th is.....challenging.
What I like, is that I don't need Devastation Centipedes and their ilk to make a challenging and (mostly) logical game. Our big problem is precisely that it takes Godzilla (I know, it's Gojira) in order to get the PCs outa bed. And that is unrealistic and boring.
Note, we don't want to go plane hopping, slaying prismatic dragons. We like our Forgotten Realms. Speaking of which, the other great thing about this is that high level foes remain viable longer (as your CR rises more slowly), and critters like Khelben, or the dreaded Elminster (yeah, I said it) are easier to explain with relative verisimilitude.
no amount of houserules can fix the abomination called the epic handbook. if i wanted to have a level 9,999 flonne slaughter overlord baal. i could just enter my bedroom. Insert Disgaea Into my playstation, turn it on, load the file, and haul arse. if i really wanted to waste that many months trying to get there, i would have done it by now. i am also against the idea of gear dependancy. i hate it when 90% of your power comes from your gear. it makes epic characters feel a lot less epic.
no amount of houserules can fix the abomination called the epic handbook. if i wanted to have a level 9,999 flonne slaughter overlord baal. i could just enter my bedroom. Insert Disgaea Into my playstation, turn it on, load the file, and haul arse. if i really wanted to waste that many months trying to get there, i would have done it by now. i am also against the idea of gear dependancy. i hate it when 90% of your power comes from your gear. it makes epic characters feel a lot less epic.
[tongue in cheek]That sounds like 4E talk to me. You don't want people to think you play 4E, do you?[/tongue in cheek]
no amount of houserules can fix the abomination called the epic handbook. if i wanted to have a level 9,999 flonne slaughter overlord baal. i could just enter my bedroom. Insert Disgaea Into my playstation, turn it on, load the file, and haul arse. if i really wanted to waste that many months trying to get there, i would have done it by now. i am also against the idea of gear dependancy. i hate it when 90% of your power comes from your gear. it makes epic characters feel a lot less epic.
The 50th level characters in my campaign have less gear than the 15th-level characters in most campaigns I've seen.
There was an article, I think in The Dragon, talking about this one time. It said if you want to run a noir campaign, make it low magic. Good advice.
Stretches the system less when the characters aren't Christmas trees, too.
no amount of houserules can fix the abomination called the epic handbook. if i wanted to have a level 9,999 flonne slaughter overlord baal. i could just enter my bedroom. Insert Disgaea Into my playstation, turn it on, load the file, and haul arse. if i really wanted to waste that many months trying to get there, i would have done it by now. i am also against the idea of gear dependancy. i hate it when 90% of your power comes from your gear. it makes epic characters feel a lot less epic.[tongue in cheek]That sounds like 4E talk to me. You don't want people to think you play 4E, do you?[/tongue in cheek]
i really don't like 4e, but there are a few concepts there i would like to import. such as minions, about gear dependancy, i have tequilla sunrise to fix that issue. i just have to wait for his digital library to reopen.
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one thing that works for me:
As the PC's get higher and higher in power, stop caring so much about the minutiae. Who cares how many arrows the 15th level archer is carrying? If he REALLY needs more, I'm sure either he or the party's arcanist/cleric can figure out how to get them.
Likewise, I import lots of stuff from Mutants and Masterminds which allow for a more easily-flowing "epic" feeling game.
Minions, I plan on implementing soon. One hit baddies that still get to do their thing? yes please.
Things I've borrowed from M&M:
Hero Points (we use the Action Point system from Eberron, but I've been incorporating more and more tricks for them to use). Example: the Paladin was surrounded with weak fey creatures (basically minions anyways...one hit from pally boy = dead), so he expended 4 Action Points (2/feat) for access to Great Cleave for a round. He missed, but without that ability, he couldn't have even tried.
Cinematic movement: if it's not in combat, and they're not searching every 10' square of a dungeon, I handwave overland or over-water travel. Days of rations, or survival checks to get game are meaningless at higher levels anyways...and it's not "heroic" for your 13th or 15th level group to die of starvation. (Survival style games would of course need more stringent rules)
Pacing: less of the rules and more to do with how the game itself plays out over the night. I try to have "roll initiative" come up very early in the night, preferably as the 1st thing the party does once everyone's ready. I try to keep the combats flowing - fleeing mooks, BBEG's using delay or hit & run tactics, limiting my use of summoning or other time-intensive actions. This way, especially as the PC's mobility gets crazy, everyone can feel like they're doing something to affect the whole, no matter where they may be in the area.
-t
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Wow. I seem to be the only one who thinks that the power level of "epic-level" characters should taper off, instead of skyrocketing. Let's face it, even at 10th level characters are so far above the power levels of the average person that they might as well be considered demi-gods. (Well, unless you're in Forgotten Realms, where the average homeless drunk is a 70th level arch-mage.) I think maybe a system where most abilities cease improvement or at least drastically reduce improvement at 20th level would be fine, and then have 36th level as the ultimate level cap.
i really don't like 4e, but there are a few concepts there i would like to import. such as minions, about gear dependancy, i have tequilla sunrise to fix that issue. i just have to wait for his digital library to reopen.no amount of houserules can fix the abomination called the epic handbook. if i wanted to have a level 9,999 flonne slaughter overlord baal. i could just enter my bedroom. Insert Disgaea Into my playstation, turn it on, load the file, and haul arse. if i really wanted to waste that many months trying to get there, i would have done it by now. i am also against the idea of gear dependancy. i hate it when 90% of your power comes from your gear. it makes epic characters feel a lot less epic.[tongue in cheek]That sounds like 4E talk to me. You don't want people to think you play 4E, do you?[/tongue in cheek]
*Poof* You summoned me, mistress? My gear dependency fix is on the last couple pages of here.
Personally, I like 4e but am disappointed that characters still need their magical bling bling. Gear dependency is easier to remove in 4e, but normally high level characters are just as dependent on their magical attack and defense boosters.
PS: Your avatar is sweet! If I weren't so insecure in my masculinity, I'd steal it. ;)
Personally, I like 4e but am disappointed that characters still need their magical bling bling. Gear dependency is easier to remove in 4e, but normally high level characters are just as dependent on their magical attack and defense boosters.
Yeah, from what little I've seen, it's not a bad system. I was mostly messing.
I seem to be the only one who thinks that the power level of "epic-level" characters should taper off, instead of skyrocketing.
That's because you have a vested interest with there being no mortal beings to challenge you. Believe me, there will still be plenty of weak and insane mortals for you to devour.
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While that was just a riff on my username, it's one of the reasons that I do think that way. I don't care if you are 20th level or 2000th level, a god should smack you down as if you were a 1 hp kobold commoner either way. I like the fact that Paizo hasn't given gods stats thus far, and I hope that doesn't change.
I don't care if you are 20th level or 2000th level, a god should smack you down as if you were a 1 hp kobold commoner either way.
I'll send Raistlin over in a bit to have a word with you. He has cupcakes, so I know you'll let him in. :)
i really don't like 4e, but there are a few concepts there i would like to import. such as minions, about gear dependancy, i have tequilla sunrise to fix that issue. i just have to wait for his digital library to reopen.no amount of houserules can fix the abomination called the epic handbook. if i wanted to have a level 9,999 flonne slaughter overlord baal. i could just enter my bedroom. Insert Disgaea Into my playstation, turn it on, load the file, and haul arse. if i really wanted to waste that many months trying to get there, i would have done it by now. i am also against the idea of gear dependancy. i hate it when 90% of your power comes from your gear. it makes epic characters feel a lot less epic.[tongue in cheek]That sounds like 4E talk to me. You don't want people to think you play 4E, do you?[/tongue in cheek]*Poof* You summoned me, mistress? My gear dependency fix is on the last couple pages of here.
Personally, I like 4e but am disappointed that characters still need their magical bling bling. Gear dependency is easier to remove in 4e, but normally high level characters are just as dependent on their magical attack and defense boosters.
PS: Your avatar is sweet! If I weren't so insecure in my masculinity, I'd steal it. ;)
Thanks for the compliment. i have a few more questions, are you writing variants for pathfinder? like you did for 3e and 4e? i'd like to see an update to your tome of houserules for pathfinder.
While that was just a riff on my username, it's one of the reasons that I do think that way. I don't care if you are 20th level or 2000th level, a god should smack you down as if you were a 1 hp kobold commoner either way. I like the fact that Paizo hasn't given gods stats thus far, and I hope that doesn't change.
Exactly. That's how I handle it. Why stat them out?
On occasion the characters will fight with an avatar or an aspect of some powerful being, but the actual Powers - well, they couldn't be bothered with actually confronting a mere mortal. The power levels in D&DG were low even for non-epic play, and for epic play they're silly.
Should they ever be foolish enough to actually attempt to confront one of the Powers, they'd all be automatically enslaved or something, even by the very weakest of deities.
Thanks for the compliment. i have a few more questions, are you writing variants for pathfinder? like you did for 3e and 4e? i'd like to see an update to your tome of houserules for pathfinder.
Alas, I'm unlikely to ever write house rules for PF. I'd play PF if a friend wanted to run it, but I don't have the motivation to drop cash on PF when I already have 3e and 4e. (I don't think I'm Paizo's target audience; I'd be more interested in a PF with less focus on backwards compatibility and more change.)
Alas, I'm unlikely to ever write house rules for PF. I'd play PF if a friend wanted to run it, but I don't have the motivation to drop cash on PF when I already have 3e and 4e. (I don't think I'm Paizo's target audience; I'd be more interested in a PF with less focus on backwards compatibility and more change.)
Thanks for the compliment. i have a few more questions, are you writing variants for pathfinder? like you did for 3e and 4e? i'd like to see an update to your tome of houserules for pathfinder.
Me too. That's why we want to see your house rules for Pathfinder....duh...
I know what you mean but my group has grabbed PRPG for the change it does have. It's up to me to convince my group to let me change more. Alas, but they prefer "plug-n-play". Simpletons, don't they understand that true gaming requires a loose-leaf full of house scribblings?!?
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I thought that the approach that Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved took -- 10th level spells, advancement to level 25 worked.
As someone who played an epic level character -- a wizard -- it was hard to get the Epic Spell Casting to work well. (The DM of the campaign allowed a ton of exceptions.) So, perhaps one solution to the problems of Epic Level is to perhaps look at a different way to handle many of the facets of epic level play than the ELH.
Alas, I'm unlikely to ever write house rules for PF. I'd play PF if a friend wanted to run it, but I don't have the motivation to drop cash on PF when I already have 3e and 4e. (I don't think I'm Paizo's target audience; I'd be more interested in a PF with less focus on backwards compatibility and more change.)
Thanks for the compliment. i have a few more questions, are you writing variants for pathfinder? like you did for 3e and 4e? i'd like to see an update to your tome of houserules for pathfinder.Me too. That's why we want to see your house rules for Pathfinder....duh...
I know what you mean but my group has grabbed PRPG for the change it does have. It's up to me to convince my group to let me change more. Alas, but they prefer "plug-n-play". Simpletons, don't they understand that true gaming requires a loose-leaf full of house scribblings?!?
Heh, too true, too true. The best I can say is that if anyone gives me PF, a physical copy or otherwise, I'll be glad to take a look at it; and probably won't be able to help myself from commenting on some house rules I'd use.
Heh, too true, too true. The best I can say is that if anyone gives me PF, a physical copy or otherwise, I'll be glad to take a look at it; and probably won't be able to help myself from commenting on some house rules I'd use.Alas, I'm unlikely to ever write house rules for PF. I'd play PF if a friend wanted to run it, but I don't have the motivation to drop cash on PF when I already have 3e and 4e. (I don't think I'm Paizo's target audience; I'd be more interested in a PF with less focus on backwards compatibility and more change.)
Thanks for the compliment. i have a few more questions, are you writing variants for pathfinder? like you did for 3e and 4e? i'd like to see an update to your tome of houserules for pathfinder.Me too. That's why we want to see your house rules for Pathfinder....duh...
I know what you mean but my group has grabbed PRPG for the change it does have. It's up to me to convince my group to let me change more. Alas, but they prefer "plug-n-play". Simpletons, don't they understand that true gaming requires a loose-leaf full of house scribblings?!?
Nice hint.
Tequilla Sunrise, Can i drink you?
Not in public you can't!
it's a free country.
Tequilla Sunrise, Can i drink you?
No, but I just sprayed some drink out of my nose.
*Note to self: Do not drink citrus juice, soft drinks or hard liquor while reading the epic thread.*
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In my group's epic game that ran quite a few sessions, it started to get very difficult to challenge the PCs. This was largely due to three characters:
1.) Epic Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight with Epic Spellcasting. A twin-Intensified (maximize it, then double it) Enervation (target loses 16 levels) usually started the fight. He also had a permanent Divination that dealt 10d6 lightning damage to any creature attempting to hide from him within 200 feet. And since lightning was his specialty, he also had an Intensified version of Chain Lightning.
2.) Epic Cleric with Epic Spellcasting, Automatic Quicken Spells (up to 9th), and most item creation feats including Craft Construct. He wound up studying a gargantuan statue Guardian of Waterdeep and copied it, meaning he had a gargantuan stone golem following him around ethereally.
3.) Half-red dragon minotaur barbarian/frenzied berzerker with Intimidating Rage meant that most enemies could not even stand and fight him. The cleric graciously gave him an item to make him immune to mental influence, too.
It took some time, but I did put together some encounters that tested their limits. My favorite was the Balor Assassin hiding (immune electricity) with full cover on the ceiling of a smoke-filled room, the floor of which was nearly filled with obstacles, glyph traps set for living targets, and mindless undead.
I played in a 30th level epic Eberron game, and the DM had a really good, simple idea that sped up gameplay dramatically. We had 7 players, with cohorts, and typically fought masses of high-level enemies at a time. So, to move things along faster, the DM let us give average damage rolls if we chose too. For example, if my character used and attack that normally did 6d6 damage, we could choose to deal 19 or so damage instead of rolling dice and adding numbers. We had some Psions in the party, so some of you can imagine the amount of dice they were capable of busting out at a time. Just giving the average drastically sped up play, without breaking the rules too much.
EDIT: I realize, half the fun of the game is rolling the dice and the randomness of it all, but when dealing with the amount of numbers at a time as we were, along with our limited play time schedule, this worked for us. Also, it was purely a choice; we were all allowed to still roll damage if we wanted to.
I played in a 30th level epic Eberron game, and the DM had a really good, simple idea that sped up gameplay dramatically. We had 7 players, with cohorts, and typically fought masses of high-level enemies at a time. So, to move things along faster, the DM let us give average damage rolls if we chose too. For example, if my character used and attack that normally did 6d6 damage, we could choose to deal 19 or so damage instead of rolling dice and adding numbers. We had some Psions in the party, so some of you can imagine the amount of dice they were capable of busting out at a time. Just giving the average drastically sped up play, without breaking the rules too much.
It does speed it up, but damn it's fun rolling 40d6 :)
And it intimidates the hell out of the players. "You see how many dice he's rolling? Wait, he's rolling them again!"
I played in a 30th level epic Eberron game, and the DM had a really good, simple idea that sped up gameplay dramatically. We had 7 players, with cohorts, and typically fought masses of high-level enemies at a time. So, to move things along faster, the DM let us give average damage rolls if we chose too. For example, if my character used and attack that normally did 6d6 damage, we could choose to deal 19 or so damage instead of rolling dice and adding numbers. We had some Psions in the party, so some of you can imagine the amount of dice they were capable of busting out at a time. Just giving the average drastically sped up play, without breaking the rules too much.It does speed it up, but damn it's fun rolling 40d6 :)
And it intimidates the hell out of the players. "You see how many dice he's rolling? Wait, he's rolling them again!"
Haha, yeah it is. But, at the time, we had barely 2 hours to play, and 8 people total. There were literally game sessions where we'd get to do 1 action, maybe 2, during the entire session. It needed a little quickening.
I'd rather see all the bonuses shifted from the magic items to character progression. And cap ability scores at 30. That way it's your character that is special, and at high levels you can't pump a score up to game breaking.
I don't think characters even need some extra bonuses beyond level 20. Why, to make numbers bigger and math even more complicated? As about magical bling - unless houserules decoupling wealth from killpower are in use, I'd say, that items do not progress in power beyond what you have in PHB at all, and epic characters can own whatever non-artifact items they want, because they are assumed to have effectively infinite wealth/favors.
Exactly. That's how I handle it. Why stat them out?
On occasion the characters will fight with an avatar or an aspect of some powerful being, but the actual Powers - well, they couldn't be bothered with actually confronting a mere mortal. The power levels in D&DG were low even for non-epic play, and for epic play they're silly.
Should they ever be foolish enough to actually attempt to confront one of the Powers, they'd all be automatically enslaved or something, even by the very weakest of deities.
I hate this particular position with the hatred hot as ten thousand supernovas. If I play the game about stabbing things in the face, everything in the world should have a face that I, if I want, can stab within boundaries of a typical campaign. If I play the game about something you can see in actual non DnD-derivative fantasy books, i.e. saving or changing the world, nothing in the world should be powerful enough to make my world-saving effort pointless or automatically block the change. Again, within boundaries of a typical campaign. Entities that do not interact with world in apparent ways can be excluded in both cases, but DnD's powers are not among them.
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I'd rather see all the bonuses shifted from the magic items to character progression. And cap ability scores at 30. That way it's your character that is special, and at high levels you can't pump a score up to game breaking.I don't think characters even need some extra bonuses beyond level 20. Why, to make numbers bigger and math even more complicated?
I was actually talking about taking the bonuses you get from magic items away from the items and giving them out as character advancements. Magic items would not give any numerical bonuses. It actually was off topic and had nothing to do with epic level rules, so I apologize for the confusion.
I hate this particular position with the hatred hot as ten thousand supernovas. If I play the game about stabbing things in the face, everything in the world should have a face that I, if I want, can stab within boundaries of a typical campaign. If I play the game about something you can see in actual non DnD-derivative fantasy books, i.e. saving or changing the world, nothing in the world should be powerful enough to make my world-saving effort pointless or automatically block the change. Again, within boundaries of a typical campaign. Entities that do not interact with world in apparent ways can be excluded in both cases, but DnD's powers are not among them.
Exactly. That's how I handle it. Why stat them out?
On occasion the characters will fight with an avatar or an aspect of some powerful being, but the actual Powers - well, they couldn't be bothered with actually confronting a mere mortal. The power levels in D&DG were low even for non-epic play, and for epic play they're silly.
Should they ever be foolish enough to actually attempt to confront one of the Powers, they'd all be automatically enslaved or something, even by the very weakest of deities.
I agree. WotC was much maligned (by some) for doing Deities and Demigods with stat blocks. Of course, they also playtested it with a Greater God version of Cthulhu. They pitted 4 iconics at 20th level against him. Every time one died, they replaced it the next round; so basically, endless supply of 20th level characters. After 11 died, they called a halt in favor of the God.
I know, if you go epic this can change. But, remember, if the PCs have it then so do the gods. And, By-the-Book, 60th level gods cream PCs.
To top it all off though, the default cosmology in that book doesn't even allow mortals to kill deities. There is nothing wrong with statting gods, and even fighting them if the occasion should arise. It is completely up the GM and his campaign whether PCs can kill gods or not.
In fact, in my aforementioned houserule for epic play, we are thinking that deities will also be limited to the "best 20" fof HD, Spellcasting, etc. But with customized DDG equivalent "God Buffs", they will still stomp ass. I think it is iconic to imagine the best fighter in the world able to stand toe to toe with the god of war. This story is in mythology. But they usually can't kill the god of war, and take his stuff, let alone his portfolio of divine power.
I hate this particular position with the hatred hot as ten thousand supernovas. If I play the game about stabbing things in the face, everything in the world should have a face that I, if I want, can stab within boundaries of a typical campaign. If I play the game about something you can see in actual non DnD-derivative fantasy books, i.e. saving or changing the world, nothing in the world should be powerful enough to make my world-saving effort pointless or automatically block the change. Again, within boundaries of a typical campaign. Entities that do not interact with world in apparent ways can be excluded in both cases, but DnD's powers are not among them.
Exactly. That's how I handle it. Why stat them out?
On occasion the characters will fight with an avatar or an aspect of some powerful being, but the actual Powers - well, they couldn't be bothered with actually confronting a mere mortal. The power levels in D&DG were low even for non-epic play, and for epic play they're silly.
Should they ever be foolish enough to actually attempt to confront one of the Powers, they'd all be automatically enslaved or something, even by the very weakest of deities.
You, of course, are making the assumption that my game is about stabbing things in the face. Which it's not.
Edit: Most of the time :)
But there's a simple consideration here. Consider a cleric, who gets their powers from a deity - it's reasonable that said deity is significantly more powerful than that cleric. And since the cleric's party members are assumed to be of corresponding power to the cleric, then other deities are correspondingly more powerful than them.
It's basic logic. If plain old mortals can reach 50th level, then clearly deities are significantly more powerful. So why bother statting them out?
I don't run a "kill the gods" campaign. There's nothing inherently wrong with such a campaign, but like I won't be running the Sailor Moon RPG or Bushido or many other RPGs that I personally have no interest in, I will never be running such a campaign.
The amount of wealth the characters should have at their disposal was mind bogglingly huge and simply not worth all the bookkeeping.not mention the amount of wealth found on creatures. a wandering monster with hundreds of thousands of gp worth of gear?? that seems a bit much.
It doesn't have to be like that.
Remember that the treasure tables are talking about average loot. So if the average loot is supposed to be 200k GP per encounter, and you create 5 encounters, then that means you should give out 1M in loot. If you want, you could put it all in a portable hole in the last bad guy's pocket and have the first 4 encounters be penniless.
Or your story could be about slaying the evil baron and when it's all done, you didn't find much gold, but the king lets you keep his castle and lands - and it turns out to be worth about a million gold, give or take.
So it doesn't have to be a wandering encounter with hundreds of thousands of GP in his pockets - I agree, that would usually be a bit much.
To anwer the OP's question:
The ELH is a whole new rule system. Instead of gaining new spell levels, casters make their own out of epic "power words" (pardon the simpilfication). Instead of gaining new HP, BAB, Saves, etc., players just get extra feats, some of which can give them this stuff or they can get new cool abilities instead. BAB stops, so iterative attacks stop increasing in number.
In a nutshell, it's almost a whole new game.
That's what I like the least about it. WotC could have published rules to extend the existing game. Instead, they created an arbitrary wall where the rules we've been using for 20 levels come crashing to a halt and we're handed a whole new set of rules.
Unfortunately, the monsters still play by the old rules. Which makes it strange indeed. The players are tasked with juggling new rules and the DM is tasked with challenging them using the old rules.
That's all a big oversimplification, but I did sort of condense a ~200 page book into 3 paragraphs...
The system itself works, sort of, but it feels like someone cobbled it together with little rhyme or reason. It also feels poorly thought out, like they rushed the job.
But it mainly works. I used it once and my players all agreed that the whole new system was kludgy, cumbersome, and unnecessary.
So, I did away with nearly all of it. I kept the feats and stopped the iterative progression, but otherwise I basically just let the classes continue on up their existing level paths, rolling HP, gaining saves and attack modifiers, gaining higher level spell slots (although they had to reasearch higher level spells or use those slots for metamagicked spells, such as a quickened Disintigrate in a 10th level slot). It saved everyone a bunch of headaches.
You, of course, are making the assumption that my game is about stabbing things in the face. Which it's not.
No, I'm not. That's why I specifically mentioned archetypal fantasy plotlines. And those presume that the world will be changed radically and permanently by the end of the storyline. And this assumption is not compatible with invulnerable NPCs that have their hand in everything.
Edit: Most of the time :)But there's a simple consideration here. Consider a cleric, who gets their powers from a deity - it's reasonable that said deity is significantly more powerful than that cleric. And since the cleric's party members are assumed to be of corresponding power to the cleric, then other deities are correspondingly more powerful than them.
Yeah as if outgrowing your patron never happens.
It's basic logic. If plain old mortals can reach 50th level, then clearly deities are significantly more powerful. So why bother statting them out?
Basic logic dictates that, in an average DnD setting, deities should either only slightly stronger than mortal bigshots, or incredibly restricted in their actions, to the point they are essentialy unable to directly interact with the campaign world. Playing on a charred battlefield of powers beyond your imagination is not what DnD is about.
I don't run a "kill the gods" campaign.
Then, frankly, you have no businness running epic games, assuming gods aren't effectively relegated to spell batteries*, and I don't really get this vibe from your post.
*Notably, in most DnD settings gods effectively are nothing but spell batteries 99% of the time, not interacting with the world at all. Except their restrictions are not codified, so that in those 1% of the times when PCs actually get to be world-important, gods can immediately smack them down.
I like the fact that Paizo hasn't given gods stats thus far
You mean like the Red Mantas, god of the Red Mantas Assassins detailed in the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP? He's CR30.
My only experience with an epic game came from a D&D campaign I ran. It did not start out epic. In fact I started it at 3rd level (I do that with most of my games so the characters are slightly less crunchy). Two and a half years of solid game player later and the characters were well into epic. When I finally stopped running the lowest character was 25th and the highest was 29th (with a few templates he picked up along the way through RP).
Personally I thought it was a lot of fun, but hard to run. At high levels it was very hard to make encounters that wouldn't a) wast a player a turn almsot guaranteed and/or b) go down by round too. Believe me it was much more a case "and" than "or". It does get difficult to run.
Personaly I would never start a game epic or have too much interesting in playing one that does. However if the players earn their way up there, then they've got it coming to them.
Then, frankly, you have no businness running epic games, assuming gods aren't effectively relegated to spell batteries*, and I don't really get this vibe from your post.
I don't run a "kill the gods" campaign.
Okay, I'll step out of this discussion now, since you clearly know more about the epic campaign I've run since 2006 than I do.
Wow. So for you the ONLY viable option for an epic-level campaign is a "kill the gods" type scenario? I pity your lack of imagination, especially considering this hobby's reliance on imagination.Then, frankly, you have no businness running epic games
I don't run a "kill the gods" campaign.
And considering the d100 epic campaign ideas table in the book itself....
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Basic logic dictates that, in an average DnD setting, deities should either only slightly stronger than mortal bigshots, or incredibly restricted in their actions, to the point they are essentialy unable to directly interact with the campaign world. Playing on a charred battlefield of powers beyond your imagination is not what DnD is about.
YO DOG, WE HERD YOU LIKE ONETRUEWAYISM. SO WE PUT SOME FALSE DICHOTOMY IN YOUR ASSERTION SO YOU CAN SABOTAGE YOUR POSITION WHILE YOU RANT.
Then, frankly, you have no businness running epic games, assuming gods aren't effectively relegated to spell batteries*, and I don't really get this vibe from your post.
Frankly, you have no business telling people how they're having fun wrong.
Also, "Lady of Pain". Feel free to rage now.
Basic logic dictates that, in an average DnD setting, deities should either only slightly stronger than mortal bigshots, or incredibly restricted in their actions, to the point they are essentialy unable to directly interact with the campaign world. Playing on a charred battlefield of powers beyond your imagination is not what DnD is about.YO DOG, WE HERD YOU LIKE ONETRUEWAYISM. SO WE PUT SOME FALSE DICHOTOMY IN YOUR ASSERTION SO YOU CAN SABOTAGE YOUR POSITION WHILE YOU RANT.
Then, frankly, you have no businness running epic games, assuming gods aren't effectively relegated to spell batteries*, and I don't really get this vibe from your post.Frankly, you have no business telling people how they're having fun wrong.
Also, "Lady of Pain". Feel free to rage now.
+1