Ok, so right now I'm putting the finishing touches on my home-brewed steampunk world. The biggest problem I'm having is setting up guns and how they work. My biggest problem is with turret guns (multiple-barreled flintlocks with revolving barrels). This is what I have at the moment based off of the flintlock guns in the 3.5 DMG, D20 past, and some online research about flintlocks in general.
How Guns Work:
An Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) allows a character to become proficient with all gun types. All guns are considered Masterwork. Rolling a natural 1 with a gun results in rolling a percentile in which there are a few outcomes, from the gun exploding (giving it the broken condition) to the gun jamming. A jammed gun cannot fire any bullets, a gun can be unjammed at a Gunsmiths or by making a Craft (Gunsmithing) check (DC10+1 for each barrel). It takes 2 full-round actions to reload the first 1-2 barrels of any gun and an additional full-round action to reload 2 more barrels (allowing a proficient character to reload a 6 barreled turret gun in 4 full-round actions), it takes twice as long for a non-proficient person to reload a gun. Rapid Reload may be applied to any gun but, like crossbows, it must be taken individual times for each type of gun (musket, pistol, and blunderbuss), you must be proficient with firearms to apply Rapid Reload to them. A character with Rapid Reload takes 1 full-round action to reload the first 1-2 barrels of a gun and an additional full-round action to reload the other 1-4 barrels (allowing a proficient user to reload a 6 barreled turret gun in 2 full-round actions). Mounted characters can fire a gun while mounted but the mount must remain stationary while the character is reloading. You may fire 1 barrel/round/point of BAB so, Rapid Shot may be applied to turret guns.
Gun Powder
An ounce of gun powder is need to propel a bullet (or pellets) out of a gun. Gun Powder can be purchased in small kegs (15lbs. capacity, 20lbs. total weight, 250gp each), large kegs (55lbs. capacity, 60lbs. total weight, 850gp each), and in water resistant powder horns (2lbs. capacity and total weight, 35gp for a full powder horn). If gun powder gets wet it cannot be used to fire a gun.
Bullets: 10 for 3gp Pellets (blunderbuss only): 10 rounds for 5gp
Pistol - one handed - 250gp - s 1d8 - m 1d10 - x3 - 50ft. - 3lbs. - P
Musket - two handed - 500gp - s 1d10 - m 1d12 - x3 - 150ft. - 10lbs. - P
Turret Guns: A pistol or musket may be made into a turret gun at creation. For a turret pistol the price increases by 75gp for each additional barrel and for a turret musket the price increases by 100gp for each additional barrel. A turret gun may not have more than 6 barrels.
2 Barreled Guns: These guns work slightly different than other multi-barreled guns. A 2 barreled gun fires both barrels at the same time using 1 attack roll for both barrels, this means a 2 barreled gun may only be fired at 1 target (if that wasn't obvious enough).
Blunderbuss - two handed - 550gp - 19-20x2 - 60ft. - 6lbs. - P
Damage: The first 20ft. is 1 line that deals 5d4 damage. The second 20ft. is 3 lines wide, the middle line deals 3d4 and the 2 outside lines deal 1d4. The last 20ft. is 5 lines wide with all lines dealing 1d4. A small creature reduces the die to d3's and a large creature increases the die to d6's. *Once a creature is hit in a line all the lines behind that line stop.
Natural 1 percentiles for 1-2 barreled guns:
1-25%: The gun explodes dealing 1 barrels damage plus 1 for every barrel on the gun in fire damage to the wielder and causing everyone in a 5ft. radius to make a reflex save (DC10+1 for each barrel) or take 1 point of fire damage per barrel. The gun is considered broken and jammed.
26-50%: The gun misfires and jams.
51-100%: The gun misfires.
Natural 1 percentiles for 3-6 barreled guns:
*use the previous table if the gun only has 1 barrel loaded
1-25%: The gun explodes dealing 1 barrels damage plus 1 for every barrel on the gun in fire damage to the wielder and causing everyone in a 5ft. radius to make a reflex save (DC10+1 for each barrel) or take 1 point of fire damage per barrel. The gun is considered broken and jammed.
26-50%: The gun fires off all its barrels, the wielder rolls a 2nd attack roll with a -4 penalty, if he hits the enemy takes x4 critical damage without a confirmation roll. The wielder takes 2 points of Dexterity damage per barrel fired and 1 barrels bludgeoning damage. The gun is considered broken and jammed.
51-75%: The gun misfires and jams.
76-100%: The gun misfires.
Now all the players in my game like the 26-50% chance for 3-6 barreled guns but I've had mixed feelings about it from other people so if you don't like it then you don't have to use it but, that's just how it's going to run in my game. Also, the reason a 3-6 barreled gun still uses the second set of percentiles if 2 barrels are loaded is because they're not expecting 2 barrels to fire like a person with a 2 barreled gun is. Anyway any input is welcome even if it is just criticizing the 26-50% chance on the 3-6 barreled guns. Thanks.
Sorry about he length of that. Also I have a new feat for gun users as well.
Tip-Top Shape, Prerequisites: Craft (Gunsmithing) 10 ranks, Knowledge (Engineering) 5 ranks, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms). Characters with this feat only risk a 10% chance of a gun jamming or exploding when rolling a natural 1 with a gun. In addition characters using a turret gun only risk a 10% chance of all the barrels firing when rolling a natural 1.
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You put a lot of work into all that, so I apologize for what I'm about to say.
Scrap it.
Bowstrings broke all the time, crossbows jammed up a heck of a lot too. Swords rust and spears typically saw use once since wood can not be reforged. These real world concepts are not in the game for a reason. Stick with abstractions. Silly things like pentration, exploding dice and jamming are unnecessary. Guns should be exotic weapon profs and be power apropiate. Giving them an extended reload time fits already with the game and makes rapid reload a useful feat.
IMHO guns should do d8 damage, but have a x4 crit like scythes. It just fits.
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Ya, I you're right about the reality factor lol nothing else really has a chance of breaking unless someone sunders it. I guess I can just take out the natural 1 stuff and just have it miss like any other weapon lol and there's a fumble chance or something (the people I'm playing with like the idea of a chance fumbling on natural 1s for whatever reason). I don't really know if I want to go down on damage (with medium pistols dealing 1d8 and medium muskets dealing 1d10) though, I kind of like being the idea of using a great axe (with piercing damage and no strength modifier) from 150ft. away :P
What if guns attacked Touch AC instead of normal AC?
What if guns attacked Touch AC instead of normal AC?
Then I'd have to give people in heavy armor damage reduction against them or give the person that's being shot at a reflex save :P
Sure, it would probably be game disrupting, but more realistic.
Is it bad that I'm thinking this lol?
New (Possibly Epic) Feat
Deflect Bullets, Prerequisites: 21 Dexterity, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, Dodge. Once per lifetime (no actually it probably be 1/day) a character with this feat may deflect a bullet with a manufactured weapon.
So I'm thinking about adding a mechanic that if you fire off a gun you take a -2 on Stealth checks until the start of your next turn and if it's a double barreled gun or blunderbuss you take a -4. Any thoughts? Should I make the numbers higher?
So I'm thinking about adding a mechanic that if you fire off a gun you take a -2 on Stealth checks until the start of your next turn and if it's a double barreled gun or blunderbuss you take a -4. Any thoughts? Should I make the numbers higher?
O.o
Sure, it would probably be game disrupting, but more realistic.
Assuming you're right, this begs the question: Why is realism desirable when dealing with firearms, but other weapons in the game system get a pass?
Felgoroth: I have a PF-compatible alternative combat PDF that includes blackpowder weapons available for free to people who sign up for my Quid Novi? newsletter. It's the playtest version of the doc, so it's not as finely tuned as the version that goes on-sale later this month, but at least the price is right.
:)
Click here for more information about the PDF and here for information about the newsletter. There's also this thread elsewhere on these boards with stuff about Spes Magna Games.
So I'm thinking about adding a mechanic that if you fire off a gun you take a -2 on Stealth checks until the start of your next turn and if it's a double barreled gun or blunderbuss you take a -4. Any thoughts? Should I make the numbers higher?
Just -2 and -4. You have a loud explosion and the muzzle flash. Perhaps some engineer can invent a silencer or a flash suppressor, or even a silence as a available bonus to the gun, but I would say the stealth penalty should start at -10 at least without that.
@ Freddy Honeycutt: I had thought about making a "Musketeer" (or Gunner) type class but with what I had for the class I figured out that a Fighter or Ranger can just take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) at 1st level and be just as good with guns. I might work out something where a Fighter or Ranger can start with a gun at 1st level and be proficient with it in exchange for giving up a special ability or something like that, maybe giving up martial weapons to become proficient with guns and then the Ranger adds Tip-Top Shape (the feat above in the thread) and Rapid Reload (if it's not already there) to the "archery" Combat Style Feats and get rid of Many Shot.
@ Mark Chance: The reason guns are more *real* and other weapons aren't (in my opinion) is because you're pretty much using a Great Axe from 150ft away (although I will give you that you're not adding str to your attack).
@ Sunaj Janus: Ya I was just kind of throwing some numbers out. I wasn't sure what kind of penalty it would actually be. I think it might also depend some on how far away you shoot from. With a 150ft range for the muskets you might have a better chance of hiding afterward but I'm not sure how many people are going to be shooting from that far away. The main reason I'm doing this is because there's going to be a fight and my PC's are going to fight a group that consists of a big melee Fighter and a Ranger using a 3 or 4 barreled musket hiding in the woods 100-150ft away from the battle just shooting at them while they attack the Fighter.
Two things to keep in mind.
1) Other weapons aren't realistic. D&D is the game that brought us double axes and spiked chains. Bow users regularly break realism. Why not let firearms play with the other weapons?
2) Make them worth taking. So many firearms systems add so many penalties that guns become entirely pointless. Crossbows suffer the same fate due to D&D's bizarre obsession with bows.
Oh, and a third thing, this time regarding balance:
Weapon damage doesn't matter.
No, seriously. Weapon damage rarely if ever matters. Most of the time you're getting an awesome .5 to 1 point more of damage. The vast, vast majority of damage that martial classes do, they do from their modifiers. No strength to damage and no power attack means that you are not doing great axe damage, because nobody uses a great axe without those.
Right now, your guns are useless. Sorry, but nobody will ever take them. Why would they? They take a feat to use, they take two full rounds to reload, and unless they're way specced out, you can't full attack with one. It's basically a crossbow that not even a wizard will use when out of spells.
So I'm thinking about adding a mechanic that if you fire off a gun you take a -2 on Stealth checks until the start of your next turn and if it's a double barreled gun or blunderbuss you take a -4. Any thoughts? Should I make the numbers higher?
-10 and -15 would be better. After all, a firing a flintlock is an audible metallic click followed by a small flare of the primer, followed soon after by muzzle flare and of course the explosion of the black powder, leaving a cloud of smoke directly in front of where the weapon was just held. In fact, I'd be tempted to say that stealth was pretty much out the window for at least a round or two.
As for armor damage/penetration, what we've done at 4WFG with armor piercing weapons (like bodkin arrows, war bolts, steel arrows etc) is that they do damage to the armor's hit points as well as the wearer's with a successful attack on the wearer; if the attack is unsuccessful the armor is undamaged (ie it mushroomed or deflected harmlessly).
I'd also say that firearms are -4 to strike with proficiency, and unusable without - a flintlock is simply too complicated. You have to load the powder, patch, and ball and ram them home, then fill the primer, then set the hammer so it's ready to strike the frizzen before it's ready to fire. How often do you see these weapons being able to fire, once every three rounds?
Two things to keep in mind.
1) Other weapons aren't realistic. D&D is the game that brought us double axes and spiked chains. Bow users regularly break realism. Why not let firearms play with the other weapons?
2) Make them worth taking. So many firearms systems add so many penalties that guns become entirely pointless. Crossbows suffer the same fate due to D&D's bizarre obsession with bows.
Oh, and a third thing, this time regarding balance:
Weapon damage doesn't matter.
No, seriously. Weapon damage rarely if ever matters. Most of the time you're getting an awesome .5 to 1 point more of damage. The vast, vast majority of damage that martial classes do, they do from their modifiers. No strength to damage and no power attack means that you are not doing great axe damage, because nobody uses a great axe without those.
Right now, your guns are useless. Sorry, but nobody will ever take them. Why would they? They take a feat to use, they take two full rounds to reload, and unless they're way specced out, you can't full attack with one. It's basically a crossbow that not even a wizard will use when out of spells.
+1
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In my Modern and Sci-Fi d20 games, I use the following variants. These rules are for modern firearms, but dropping the Mag rules should get pretty close to flintlock firearms.
Vitality and Wound Damage from Unearthed Arcana.
Armor as DR from UA, but changed the DR type from DR/- to DR/ballistic.
Firearms are Martial Weapons.
Pistol 2d4 Ballistic damage; Crit range 18-20; Mag 10 rnd box +1*
Carbine 2d6 Ballistic damage; Crit range 18-20; Mag 8 rnd box +1*
Rifle 2d8 Ballistic damage; Crit range 18-20; Mag 6 rnd internal +1*
*The +1 is the in the chamber
Loading 1 cartridge into a magazine is a move full-round action unless you use a speed loader or some other loading aid, then its a move. Changing a box magazine is a move action.
Non-Lethal attacks do Vitality Damge.
Lethal attacks do Vitality Damage except when the target is flat-footed.
Firearm attacks always do Wound Damage.
These rules make firearms DEADLY and cover becomes very important. Normal characters die very often in my Halo game, PCs are generally Spartans (super-soldiers equipped with energy shields) and tend to survive only a little longer.
I also have rules for burst-fire and full-auto if your interested.
I'd also say that firearms are -4 to strike with proficiency, and unusable without - a flintlock is simply too complicated. You have to load the powder, patch, and ball and ram them home, then fill the primer, then set the hammer so it's ready to strike the frizzen before it's ready to fire. How often do you see these weapons being able to fire, once every three rounds?
All of that is why it takes so long to reload. Actually shooting the gun is fairly simple, point and pull the trigger. And they were more accurate than a crossbow. If you want firearms to be more historically accurate than they shouldn't be a specialty item. They should be a powerful weapon that is fired then dropped before heading into the fight with a sword. Yes in armies they used large numbers of firearms, but in smaller numbers it isn't practical. D&D and pathfinder both encourage specializing in a single type of weapon and improving your bonuses with it over time as you get better. Firearms don't really fit this scheme well in a balanced way, they either become overpowered with damage, or they become so complex that nobody wants to use them, or they just become a clone of a bow that nobody bothers with.
I was been refining the rules for firearms for about a year in a campaign with both more primitive firearms like muskets, and more advanced firearms like shotguns. I still really want to try implementing them reliably and balanced into a campaign but still have flavor, but it isn't something that adapts to the system well.
I'd also say that firearms are -4 to strike with proficiency, and unusable without - a flintlock is simply too complicated. You have to load the powder, patch, and ball and ram them home, then fill the primer, then set the hammer so it's ready to strike the frizzen before it's ready to fire. How often do you see these weapons being able to fire, once every three rounds?All of that is why it takes so long to reload. Actually shooting the gun is fairly simple, point and pull the trigger. And they were more accurate than a crossbow. If you want firearms to be more historically accurate than they shouldn't be a specialty item. They should be a powerful weapon that is fired then dropped before heading into the fight with a sword. Yes in armies they used large numbers of firearms, but in smaller numbers it isn't practical. D&D and pathfinder both encourage specializing in a single type of weapon and improving your bonuses with it over time as you get better. Firearms don't really fit this scheme well in a balanced way, they either become overpowered with damage, or they become so complex that nobody wants to use them, or they just become a clone of a bow that nobody bothers with.
I was been refining the rules for firearms for about a year in a campaign with both more primitive firearms like muskets, and more advanced firearms like shotguns. I still really want to try implementing them reliably and balanced into a campaign but still have flavor, but it isn't something that adapts to the system well.
Yes, it's why it takes so long to reload, but it's also why it's much more complicated than a crossbow - pull back string, put bolt in groove, pull trigger. You can't tell if a musket is loaded or not without checking the primer. You have to measure the powder correctly or either jam, misfire, or potentially explode your flintlock. You have to be trained in how to reload it or you might as well throw it away after firing. In short, the actual firing may be simple enough - though knowing to expect the delay after pulling the trigger is another matter - but being able to use a firearm as a weapon requires a degree of training.
Guns ... are odd. Always have been in D&D - I honestly liked the old AD&D blunderbus and the exploding damage die IF you rolled max. Of course, that was for AD&D - won't really work as well for PF/3.x.
Looking strictly at the first post and stuff you posit I have the following on just the "how" of gun use:
1) Load times are WAY too slow for WAY too little. If you want to keep the long load times - then you need to up the damage return/output to compensate (ie: give a reason to keep with such a slow weapon). Otherwise, make 'em about as long to reload as a heavy crossbow (reasonable given the crank mechanisms and such involved in them - it should *at least* equate to the whole powder, ball, and pack routine).
2) RoF of 1 barrel/round/BAB is CRAZY fast!!! That's like ... auto-fire weapon or something ... what's wrong w/using the current progression? And only with the turret guns (as you call 'em - more on that later).
3) why all the options on guns already? {more later) It really confuses the point and makes for a LOT of fiddly-bits (probably why you wrote so much out for 'em in the first place - yes?), and that's just a good deal to keep track of.
4) blunderbuss mechanics are crazy - 'nuff said.
5) Failures = why? Nothing else gets this hosed (and that's what it really does do - hoses the user), and that's what this does to users of your gun weapons.
Ok, on to just thematic use vs. mechanics bits:
1) What's the point/theme you want to explore w/introducing the weapon? More than ANY other thing (mechanics, etc) that matters most because you can tailor the mechanics to match the them you're after.
2) Case in point: why all the gun options? This *feels* like a really sophisticated, and developed gun-wielding technology with so many bells and whistles already established. So ... is this a refined and ready technology? A society "born" to guns? It feels this way - and if so, failure rates and REALLY slow load times runs counter to that, IMO. {see - the theme is unfocused/counter to what may be intended - follow?}
3) If you want a "new" or "raw" technology, then I'd play up the uncertainties of using them, BUT they (probably in either case) need more *oompf* for the investment. Crossbows have an increased threat range and x3 ... but they're even faster than what you proposed initially. Bumping/adding to the gun templates you have would at least start to make them worthwhile, IMO.
4) Depending on the thematic point I'd say make guns either Exotic, or Simple. Given the options and tech you're gunning for, my impulse would be simply one more extension into the "simple" weapons category - if the weapons are that developed, then people must really know how to use 'em, and let's face it - it's not rocket science and historically replaced other ranged weapons because of their ease of use. On the other end, though, if they're rare and experimental - they should absolutely be "exotic" in that set-up.
Regarding the Professor's comments:
I really agree with just about everything he said and commented on.
1) Don't make guns held accountable to some level of "reality" that NO other weapon is - it's just going to create a huge disparity in play, and I'm pretty sure you don't want that (though - if that IS the point, thematically, you're going for - by all means do so. Just make the mechanics on all levels reflect this out).
2) Likewise, overly gimping the weapon means it'll be rather useless and totally overlooked.
3) Weapon Damage rating, while I hesitate to say "doesn't matter" given that it *can*, he's right on that front. It's not a huge balance issue to grant it 1d12 or whatever as it's kind of a minimal gain. Especially factored in against all the problems in using the weapons. However, assuming a hvy crossbow level of speed/use, it *can* absolutely matter - IF you bump the damage significantly up - say ... like the 5d4 blunderbuss damage rating. THAT would be worth firing only 1/round (every other if like hvy x-bow), and it could well emphasize the power of a gun over other ranged weapons. It's slow - BUT the punch it packs is worth the sacrifice of full attacks/iterative attacks, etc.
Regarding Sunaj's comments:
I agree with his assessment of their function - fire and then tossed aside, though I'd put the following option in there somehow vs. "toss aside" the weapon for "utility beyond firing" --- the bayonette! Give the guns Bayonette attachments/options by default and they've at least got a good "short spear" like weapon in-hand even if not firing (and thus not worried about taking the ranged weapon in melee penalties).
Failure could also be seen as an appropriate risk for that high damage. The really big problem with it is that sooner or latter it will happen at the wrong time and get someone killed or the party killed. Unless as a DM you roll all the characters attack rolls in secret you can't fudge the results when you really need to. And fudging results that the player is aware of is kind of a no-no in my book.
Bayonets are a really good option, just the equivalent of short sword or a dagger that can be bolted to the end of the rifle and used at a -2 penalty to attack rolls if you have proficiency with the rifle worked all right.
The problem with that ungodly reload time to high damage is that it can still cause a crap ton of damage the first round of combat.
I actually found that automatic pistols and assault rifles were the best weapon that was easy to balance. Every bullet did 1d6 but there were various feats and options on the gun that would allow you to fire multiple bullets in the same attack. Put some level, ability, and feat requirements on those various feats and you had a nice gun user that scaled up damage very smoothly as he leveled. It was also my least favorite firearm though, just seemed to lack any real flavor.
Ok, so I'm changing the damage output.
Pistol - ranged light weapon (for TWF) - small 2d4 - medium 3d4 - x4 - 50ft. - 3lbs. - piercing
Musket - two handed - small 3d4 - medium 4d4 - x4 - 150ft. - 10lbs. - piercing
*not 100% sure about the x4 critical but I don't think it's too overpowered.
I may increase the blunderbuss die to d6's for medium characters but I'm not going to change how it works because the way I have it now portrays how they actually work: the closer you are to your enemy the more damage you'll deal. If you don't like it make it a 60ft. cone because I'm sure your DM will love you walking around with a weapon that deals 5d4 or 5d6 in a 60ft cone at 3rd level.
I actually have bayonets set up for my game I just didn't put them in the post. You pretty much buy a dagger that can only be used as a bayonet, they function as spear for Muskets (1d6 small, 1d8 medium) only they don't have a 20ft. range increment (yes you can brace with them). They function as a Short Spear (1d4 small, 1d6 medium) without the range increment for Blunderbuss'. You can buy them for pistols too but they function as daggers (so if you have TWF you can run around with some weird pistols with daggers coming out of the front). I think it will take a standard or move action (not sure yet) to attach a bayonet (but I'm sure most people won't take the bayonet off so that's just kind of there for nothing). I might add a -2 to attack if you're using a gun with more than 1 or 2 barrels but I'm being yelled at for too much realism with guns from boards so I don't think I'll give any penalty to attacks with them.
I'm also working on some new feats for guns with bayonets. 1 would be if you make a full-attack action with your bayonet and your gun is loaded you can both stab (has to be piercing damage) your enemy and fire your gun. Another one (or perhaps even in addition to the first 1) would be if you're bracing with your bayonet and you hit your enemy you can also fire your gun if it's loaded.
Also guns in my world are only usable by the military unless you purchase a license to carry 1 which costs like 25gp. If you're caught without a license you get your gun taken away and a nice stay in prison for a few days. Guns aren't super available and your just as likely to see someone wearing full-plate and carrying a sword and shield as you are to see a bard prancing around with a gun and rapier.
That being said I'm also working on class variants that get the exotic weapon proficiency for free and possibly giving them 1 free gun at 1st level. I'm not 100% sure how to work that though. Maybe get rid of the Fighters 1st level bonus feat (which would pretty much be the same as taking the feat at 1st level). Or getting rid of the Fighters 2 handed martial weapons in exchange for being proficient with guns. The Ranger will probably be similar to the Fighter with how gets them. I have no idea for Bards and Rogues. Druids can't use them (at least in my game there considered prohibited) and I don't think I want Wizards, Clerics, and Sorcerers to use them for free (that might be a little ridiculous at low levels).
EDIT: I think I'm just going to do away with the percentiles for natural 1s or perhaps hold a vote with my players for whether or not they'd like to use them (because like I said the people I'm playing with like the fumble chance for some reason).
Here's an excerpt from firearms rules:
Who Can Use Firearms?
Matchlocks and flintlocks are further divided into light and heavy. All light firearms are simple weapons. All heavy firearms are martial weapons. Anyone with the appropriate weapon proficiencies can use any firearm that falls into the known category.
Using a Firearm
Firearms are missile weapons, and they follow the normal rules for making attacks with ranged weapons. Matchlocks and flintlocks can only be fired once before they have to be reloaded.
Reload Times
Reloading a firearm requires a full-round action. A flintlock can be loaded ahead of time and carried ready to fire. A matchlock can be loaded ahead of time, but cannot be carried with a lit match. Setting the lit match to loaded matchlock requires a move action.
Report and Muzzle Flash
Firearms are loud and flashy. A firearm's report and muzzle flash make it easy to detect when it's shot. The report can be heard about a half mile away in open country and about 200 yards in more crowded areas (such as a town). Listen checks are not needed to hear a firearm's report. A DC 0 Perception check (modified by range) can be used to pinpoint the direction from which the sound came. A DC 0 Perception check (modified by range) detects muzzle flash at night. Increase this to DC 10 during the day.
Here's an excerpt from firearms rules:
Who Can Use Firearms?
Matchlocks and flintlocks are further divided into light and heavy. All light firearms are simple weapons. All heavy firearms are martial weapons. Anyone with the appropriate weapon proficiencies can use any firearm that falls into the known category.Using a Firearm
Firearms are missile weapons, and they follow the normal rules for making attacks with ranged weapons. Matchlocks and flintlocks can only be fired once before they have to be reloaded.Reload Times
Reloading a firearm requires a full-round action. A flintlock can be loaded ahead of time and carried ready to fire. A matchlock can be loaded ahead of time, but cannot be carried with a lit match. Setting the lit match to loaded matchlock requires a move action.Report and Muzzle Flash
Firearms are loud and flashy. A firearm's report and muzzle flash make it easy to detect when it's shot. The report can be heard about a half mile away in open country and about 200 yards in more crowded areas (such as a town). Listen checks are not needed to hear a firearm's report. A DC 0 Perception check (modified by range) can be used to pinpoint the direction from which the sound came. A DC 0 Perception check (modified by range) detects muzzle flash at night. Increase this to DC 10 during the day.
I'm not using matchlocks (for simplicities sake) in my game. I'm keeping it as just flintlocks. I took the 2 full-round actions to reload from D20 past. The Muzzle Flash/Report helps a lot, thanks.
I forgot to put this in my previous post, I'm changing rapid reload slightly. You can reload the first 1-3 barrels as a full-round action and the remaining 1-3 barrels in an additional full-round. That means if you want you can fire 6 barrels (if your gun has 6 barrels) over so many rounds, reload 3 barrels, fire, and repeat.
Personally I would:
Use touch AC to hit
Damage should be in the 2d10 region for pistols
Damage should be about 3d10 for muskets
Use DR= to target AC-DEX mod
Rate of Fire should be really slow 1/three rounds?
Scrape proficiency but use a Blackpowder skill something like +1 to hit for every skill point and -1 to RoF for every 5 skill points above 10.
Personally I would:
Use touch AC to hit
Damage should be in the 2d10 region for pistols
Damage should be about 3d10 for muskets
Use DR= to target AC-DEX mod
Rate of Fire should be really slow 1/three rounds?
Scrape proficiency but use a Blackpowder skill something like +1 to hit for every skill point and -1 to RoF for every 5 skill points above 10.
Why do guns need to be touch AC? They don't bypass armor, armor actually gives you some protection against a bullet or pellets even if it is just a piece of leather. 2d10 is a little much when you're using touch AC that's pretty much giving a Rogue a big reason to pick up guns. "Ok, their flatfooted and I'm attacking touch, that means they have no dex or armor bonus to AC and I'm dealing 2 or 3d10+sneak attack."
EDIT: The 1 barrel/round/BAB can only be used if you're using a turret gun. Which means if I have a 6 barreled gun and my BAB is 6/1, I can shoot 2 bullets per round because I pull the trigger, 1 barrel fires, the 6 barrels on the gun rotate, I pull the trigger again. It's the same mechanic as using a sword or bow with a high BAB, I've become faster at attacking so I can now hit the person twice in the time it used to take me to hit them once.
EDIT 2: I forgot, I'm also doing a variant for the Duelist Prestige Class, you can use a pistol but your precise strike only applies when you're within 30ft. of your enemy.
Personally I would:
Use touch AC to hit
Damage should be in the 2d10 region for pistols
Damage should be about 3d10 for muskets
Use DR= to target AC-DEX mod
Rate of Fire should be really slow 1/three rounds?
Scrape proficiency but use a Blackpowder skill something like +1 to hit for every skill point and -1 to RoF for every 5 skill points above 10.Why do guns need to be touch AC? They don't bypass armor, armor actually gives you some protection against a bullet or pellets even if it is just a piece of leather. 2d10 is a little much when you're using touch AC that's pretty much giving a Rogue a big reason to pick up guns. "Ok, their flatfooted and I'm attacking touch, that means they have no dex or armor bonus to AC and I'm dealing 2 or 3d10+sneak attack."
EDIT: The 1 barrel/round/BAB can only be used if you're using a turret gun. Which means if I have a 6 barreled gun and my BAB is 6/1, I can shoot 2 bullets per round because I pull the trigger, 1 barrel fires, the 6 barrels on the gun rotate, I pull the trigger again. It's the same mechanic as using a sword or bow with a high BAB, I've become faster at attacking so I can now hit the person twice in the time it used to take me to hit them once.
EDIT 2: I forgot, I'm also doing a variant for the Duelist Prestige Class, you can use a pistol but your precise strike only applies when you're within 30ft. of your enemy.
Armor doesn't make it harder for you to hit someone.
The armor acts as DR against the bullet.
They aren't flatfooted, I don't understand where you get touch attack=flatfooted from.
As a Rogue I would have a choice of TWF every round and getting Sneak Attack or fire off my very loud, smokey, giving my position away pistol once every three rounds. Actually make that once because you're sure not going to be able to reload with that critter swinging a great axe in your face. Whats the difference between a 5th level Rogue with 14 strength attacking with short swords flanking doing d6+2+3d6/d6+2+3d6 or doing 3d10 damage?
Guns are dangerous and cause horrible wounds and should be able to do massive damage. Otherwise with all the slow rates of fire why bother.
Your rates of fire are well off. An experianced musketeer could fire three rounds a minute. Thats once every 12 seconds under optimum conditions.
Reload as a Standard Action is too fast.
Your rates of fire are well off. An experianced musketeer could fire three rounds a minute. Thats once every 12 seconds under optimum conditions.
Reload as a Standard Action is too fast.
THE GUN HAS 6 BARRELS THAT ROTATE AS YOU SHOOT (kind of the precursor to a revolver), HE'S NOT RELOADING AND FIRING EVERY ROUND HE HAS 6 BARRELS LOADED AND THE GUN FIRES 1 BARREL/POINT OF bab, YOU'RE INFORMATION IS FOR 1 BARREL, TURRET GUNS (AKA DERRINGERS) EXIST(ED) BUT GENERALLY AREN'T MENTIONED BECAUSE THEY WERE QUICKLY REPLACED BY REVOLVERS. Derringers usually didn't have more than 4 barrels but this is fantasy so I thought I'd allow up to 6. Ooops, I must have hit the caps lock button without realizing. Here's a few pictures of turret guns from fable 2 and other random pictures from the interweb:
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o38/Keiichi81/Fable%202/Blade01.jpg
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/6149145621/9507538/ad8fa3247c3c5a6b7efefbfa 950f7613.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_abaJ0xbRju4/SpPPZ7VvsOI/AAAAAAAABos/e2m4T4Pjr2o/s 400/1861+Remington+Elliot+4+Barrel+.32+Rim+Fire+Derringer-1.jpg
On another note, if you can catch an opponent flatfooted as a Rogue with a pistol you get rid of all their armor bonus and their dex. You can do that by flanking, feinting, and through various other ways which I'm sure you know of.
You mean like THIS
You mean like THIS
Kind of only the barrels rotate as you fire instead of the revolver-like chamber (I think that's what it's called) mechanism.
EDIT: Ok, I've gotten rid of the natural 1 percentiles because I don't feel like making a mechanic for other weapons on a natural 1 and I'll get shunned if I only do it for guns. I'm keeping the 2 full-round action reload time and the updated rapid reload I posted earlier (you can reload 1-3 barrels as a full-round action then the remaining 1-3 as another full-round action and like I said you never have to reload all the barrels before you fire again). You can always have the gun loaded and ready to shoot while your running around doing things. Also because of the no natural 1 percentiles there's no tip-top shape feat but I've added the 1 below.
New Feat (haven't thought of a name yet) - Prerequisites: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms), BAB +3 (might change that) - As part of a full-attack action if your gun is loaded you may stab (this has to be piercing damage) your enemy and fire your gun. If you hit successfully with your bayonet you deal damage accordingly with it and then fire your gun without making an attack roll. If your BAB is high enough to grant you more than 1 attack you may use this feat only once during the attack even if your gun can fire more than once. In addition if you can brace with your bayonet and successfully hit (with your bayonet) while bracing you may fire your gun as part of the action.
O, Point Blank Shot is another prerequisite for that feat I just forgot to add it.
Your rates of fire are well off. An experianced musketeer could fire three rounds a minute. Thats once every 12 seconds under optimum conditions.
Reload as a Standard Action is too fast.
And professional bowman trained most their life to use their weapon, yet it's a martial weapon in D&D. And they trained for distance, not accuracy, and yet in D&D you can hit a single target over 600 yards away with three arrows in one round in low levels. And professional double-axe-man - wait, what?
Why do guns have to be realistic when nothing else is?
This is the game where monks punch through people wearing armor.
Why do guns have to be realistic when nothing else is?
D&D has been raping verisimilitude for years. It really just comes down to preference, but no one wants to admit their well crafted arguments are nothing more than a matter of taste.
@ProfessorCirno: did you not read the 2 posts where I said I'm getting rid of the natural 1 percentiles? How are they still more realistic than other weapons? Because of the 2 full-round reload time? I'm not going to change it in my game because I don't want someone doing 3 or 4d4 damage every round or so from 150ft away. Ya, ya, ya I know, weapon damage doesn't matter but I don't really care. Why do guns have to be realistic when nothing else is? you ask, because they've done it in every other edition so I thought I'd follow tradition.
Why do guns have to be realistic when nothing else is?
I have to agree with this, rules for firearms should be flavorful enough to give the feel of firearms, but disregard realism for balance in mechanics. Unless a person with a bow and arrow has a realistic firing rate, someone with a musket shouldn't be expected to have one. The expectation should be for the rules to be compatible enough to work together, but different enough for them to each have their own flavor.
Even if the ROF for the musket is decreased, it does not prevent a PC from having followers whose job is re-loading and thus having 3 muskets to use at long range....
This is for the individual that does not want someone firing every round, it seems likely to happen especially at that long range....
I want to make a NPC that has cohorts reload his muskets now.
Why do guns have to be realistic when nothing else is? you ask, because they've done it in every other edition so I thought I'd follow tradition.
Surprise surprise, guns have sucked and nobody has used them in every other edition.
Awesome tradition there.
I want to make a NPC that has cohorts reload his muskets now.
I could do that for an NPC, but I want to avoid my players having cohorts, et cetera. I find they bog down the game too much, often more than just having more players.
In my game, I have a player running a duergar psion. He's collected three matchlock pistols from fallen pirates. He pre-loads the matchlocks, and then ties the smoldering matches into his beard. Realistic? Nope. Fun for the player? Yep.
During a fight, he can get off a shot every other round, doing 1d8 points of damage. Draw the pistol (move action), set the match (move action). Fire (standard action), toss the pistol (free action), draw the next pistol (move action).
Et cetera.
Good times. :)
Oh, and a third thing, this time regarding balance:Weapon damage doesn't matter.
No, seriously. Weapon damage rarely if ever matters. Most of the time you're getting an awesome .5 to 1 point more of damage. The vast, vast majority of damage that martial classes do, they do from their modifiers. No strength to damage and no power attack means that you are not doing great axe damage, because nobody uses a great axe without those.
If weapon damage doesn't matter why don't monks have a d3 unarmed strike throughout their entire progression?
On another note, I've changed my guns quite a bit from the "realistic" versions I had before. They have a 2 full-round action reload time, which would equal out to around um... lets see, each round is 6 seconds long so... 12 seconds! Funny how that works out isn't it? and I allowed rapid reload to make a gun wielding character ungodly at reloading a gun and they can reload 6 barrels in 12 seconds. That's the most realistic part of guns in my campaign now. On top of that the guns can no longer explode, jam, or shoot off all its barrels on a natural 1. They also now have a better minimum damage (as well as a higher maximum damage in some cases) and a better critical multiplier (x4 instead of x3) making them slightly more attractive than bows and crossbows to some people.
And professional bowman trained most their life to use their weapon, yet it's a martial weapon in D&D. And they trained for distance, not accuracy, and yet in D&D you can hit a single target over 600 yards away with three arrows in one round in low levels. And professional double-axe-man - wait, what?
I agree with you for most cases there but there are people that trained for accuracy and distance or just accuracy. Look at some of the "mythical" bowman like Robin Hood for instance, he shot a bulls eye then split that arrow in half with another arrow and I'm pretty sure they said he did it from 100 or so feet away (that could be wrong but it's still really hard to do even from 10ft away).
If weapon damage doesn't matter why don't monks have a d3 unarmed strike throughout their entire progression?
Because they also get way more attacks a and flurry. Incidentally, they're one of the vastly weaker classes.
On another note, I've changed my guns quite a bit from the "realistic" versions I had before. They have a 2 full-round action reload time, which would equal out to around um... lets see, each round is 6 seconds long so... 12 seconds! Funny how that works out isn't it? and I allowed rapid reload to make a gun wielding character ungodly at reloading a gun and they can reload 6 barrels in 12 seconds. That's the most realistic part of guns in my campaign now. On top of that the guns can no longer explode, jam, or shoot off all its barrels on a natural 1. They also now have a better minimum damage (as well as a higher maximum damage in some cases) and a better critical multiplier (x4 instead of x3) making them slightly more attractive than bows and crossbows to some people.
Here's the thing though - if you cannot full attack? They aren't going to be used. It's why crossbows are delegated to "that weapon wizards use when they're out of spells" and nothing more. Despite crossbows doing more base damage then bows, you never see characters that aren't wizards who've run out of spells using them.
I agree with you for most cases there but there are people that trained for accuracy and distance or just accuracy. Look at some of the "mythical" bowman like Robin Hood for instance, he shot a bulls eye then split that arrow in half with another arrow and I'm pretty sure they said he did it from...
You're proving my point for me. Yes, mythical, nonexisting, fantasy archers could do awesome things. They're also mythical, nonexisting, and fantasy characters.
You keep talking about needing to make guns realistic. You don't. Nothing else in the game is realistic. Realism and verisilimitude are two different things.
You keep talking about needing to make guns realistic. You don't. Nothing else in the game is realistic. Realism and verisilimitude are two...
Felgoroth wants it to be realistic for his game I guess.
If you are going to post in this thread I would suspect he would like to read something constructive rather than the put downs which have been posted so far.Personally I don't like or need firearms in my campaign but if someone out there wants my imput I will give it or post nothing and ignore the thread if I can't add anything constructive to it.
Generally speaking the last thing people want to read is "Your idea is crap." it does nothing for them.
Looks like people have given most of the good advice already...
One of the really cool ideas relating to guns I've seen is from Sorcery and Steam. It's a really good resource for all things steampunk (though stay away from its spells, some of them are game-breakers).
The idea was the Munitions skill. You could clear jams, evaluate a gun, speed-load a gun, craft and place explosives, work heavy cannon and the like with it. It reflected a soldier's knowledge of a gun and gunpowder rather than a craftsman's or a chemist's, and struck me as being more likely for a character to have.
Given that the addition of gunpowder has invariably led to people in my group wanting to blow stuff up with it, I found the skill to be a useful addition to my game.
@ProfessorCirno: What's wrong with some level of realism? The 2 full-round action reload time is the only realistic part of the guns in my game now. If you'd have looked into the guns I'm making in my game you'd have noticed they can full-attack, you just have to spend more money on them because you add a barrel. A gun with multiple barrels shoots 1 barrel/round/point of BAB and your gun can have up to 6 barrels (unless you're using a Blunderbuss which works like a modified cone). The barrels on multi-barreled guns (or turret guns as I called them because I stole the name from the video game Fable 2) revolve each time you fire 1 shot. That means you fire, the barrels rotate, you can fire again if your BAB is high enough, repeat if applicable. I also happen to know of non-mythical archers that practice for both accuracy and distance, there was actually something on TV not to long ago where a guy did the Robin Hood shot (splitting an arrow with another arrow) and he also split a falling drop of water in half with an arrow.
@Spacelard: Thank you.
@Parka: I'll definitely have to look into that, it sounds like an idea that would add to characters that want to use guns (and it would probably help me out with some other steampunk inventions like artificial limbs, trains, airships, clockworks and the like).
I have used guns time and again in my games and the players always love them. I made a ball and cap revolver for a player that had 6 shots, did 2d6 damage and had a blade attached to it that did 1d4+Str. It took an exotic weapon proficiency and without rapid reload it took a round per shot to reload. I had it strike as a ranged touch attack which made up for the relative slowness. My player loved it but I game in a group where we don't break the system, because I'm sure if I did it would have been a problem.
One of the really cool ideas relating to guns I've seen is from Sorcery and Steam.
S&S is a good book. The munitions skill, the musketeer class, and section on firearms in particular are really top notch. Of course, I'm probably biased.
;)
One of the really cool ideas relating to guns I've seen is from Sorcery and Steam.S&S is a good book. The munitions skill, the musketeer class, and section on firearms in particular are really top notch. Of course, I'm probably biased.
;)
Is there a pdf or anything of this book?