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It wouldn't have to be THAT large of an area. Maybe a 400ft x 400ft area? And the participants could of course close some distance.
Reminds me of this sniper-fight-in-the-woods scene in some movie I can't remember...
o.O I should probably sleep lol
I was thinking of the scene in the Bourne movie where the guy tried to kill him in the house and they had the fight in the woods and the meadow.
This thread reminds me of the now dead MMO Earth & Beyond.
Due to the threadjack:
I was playing the race with the second greatest detection range, in the class that had the greatest detection range (making me second only to the third race in the same class).
I was flying through space to find this enormous space-whale creature. I kept my distance while studying it, because my character was not meant for fighting. I noticed the creature spasming and taking damage.
Turns out, there was a Terran on the other side of it shooting missiles at it. The poor Terran couldn't even see the thing.
When I made my presence known to the Terran, he asked me to spot for him.
So the range problems in d20/Pathfinder don't phase me.
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EVEN BETTER!
I was thinking of the scene in the Bourne movie where the guy tried to kill him in the house and they had the fight in the woods and the meadow.
I think I would just do opposed stealth and perception checks for each side every round. You get a shot off whenever you can see them. That assumes that both sides have equal cover and are moving though.
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as a player I would argue that there should be only opposing roles so unless the target is hiding I see him, the DC 0 would only come in if I wanted to identify him
my reasoning is even if I put everything into Perception as a half-elf
20 ranks, 2 racial, 2 sharp senses, 4 alertness, 6 skill focus, 1 Brightness seeker, 10 wisdom of 30, 20 hunters eye spell
850 feet maximum sight*
+20 favourable* +2 to the check ie 20 feet
+50 eagle Eye Feat* it actually ignores 5 of the DC ie 50 feet
for 920 feet, that is still 280 feet short of the maximum range of a Heavy Cross bow 120 x 10 or 1200
x2 with a spyglass for 1840
the existence of the distance enchantment support this position as there is no way in hell anyone could see something 2400 feet away as they would need a perception bonus of 220 or 110 with a spyglass. even maxxing perception the check falls 560 feet short of maximum range.
Though I agree with the logic of your words, the rules don't support you.
Which is where the human element of the GM comes into play in a role playing game and he says, "You know what? The rules in this case don't work. 1100 feet is lesst than a quarter of a mile away. I sure as hell can see some guy that far so you can to. You cannot make out great details but in this situation you definately can see it."
Raving, you get too bound up in the letter of the law at times. Remember common sense is one of the most important rules of any activity and RPG's are not exempt from that.
For the hell of it, I was wondering about literal interpretation of the rules and continuing in its spirit for cases where that's not possible, for a previously mentioned ridiculous case: the Perception DC of stepping outside and noticing the sun. It's an object, so it's not trying to be stealthy, so it's not an opposed check. Rather, in this case it is simply an "unimportant, subtle detail". Think about it, when you step outside, how often are you thinking of the sun? Sure, you know it's there, but what if it changed in some subtle way? Would you notice that?
The distance to the sun is 4.91 * 10^11 feet, and at -2 to Perception roll per 10 feet, that gives us a penalty of -98.2 * 10^9. Clearly, this is pretty bleak, so we need to apply liberal bonuses to the Perception check (GM fiat).
Even though the sun isn't trying to hide, we want to make it easy on the players, so we'll give it a size category to apply a relaxation on the Perception DC. The maximum size category doesn't cover the sun's size, and a larger modifier will benefit the players, so let's extend the rules to figure out what it would be. Medium will be Size Index 0, Large is Size Index 1, and so on. Smaller sizes can have negative numbers, but they aren't important in this exercise. Now, looking at size category boundaries (I used D&D Wiki, since I couldn't find it in the PF rules on a quick search, so my impatience led me there), it appears to be based on powers of 2. I figured that what I'll call Size Index equals log base 2 of the height of the object (minus 1 foot), or when using a regular calculator, log base 10 of the height minus 1, divided by log base 10 of 2.
Sun diameter from arbitrary result in a Google search: 4.57*10^9 feet. This finds itself at Size Index 32. Now, based off Medium to Colossal, the progression for the Stealth penalty seems to be (negative) Size Index * 4. So, -128.
Not quite there, yet. Okay. The sun emits light similar to the Daylight spell. So let's chalk that up to "favorable conditions". +2 to the Perception check.
Putting all non-player modifiers on the DC side of the equation, that makes for a DC of: 0 + 98.2*10^9 - (128 + 2) = 98.2^10.9, with some rounding.
Just can't put a dent in it. Ah, well. Also, pardon the quick and dirty math. I'm not about to put much more effort into this (arguably) joke post...
Edit: Whoops, scientific notation fail. I'll leave it the way it is.
English longbowmen weren't level 20 Rangers with true strike and inspire courage +7.
Yes they were, which is why we owned the French and pretty much the rest of the world.
:D
Though I agree with the logic of your words, the rules don't support you.Which is where the human element of the GM comes into play in a role playing game and he says, "You know what? The rules in this case don't work. 1100 feet is lesst than a quarter of a mile away. I sure as hell can see some guy that far so you can to. You cannot make out great details but in this situation you definately can see it."
Raving, you get too bound up in the letter of the law at times. Remember common sense is one of the most important rules of any activity and RPG's are not exempt from that.
+1. The game is an abstraction not a simulation. There are a whole lot rules that don't make sense. The economy of the game is broken. Another thread mentioned the ecology of the system not making sense. It is impossible to account for every possible scenario, keep the system set in a fantasy world, and make it so that no suspension of belief is needed. If it is that bothersome then someone can try to fix it. I won't be joining that project, but I will sit back with popcorn and watch the show.
I still think it would be better if there was NO DC 0 listed for people not trying to hide.
If it wasn't listed, it would likely be assumed by all that you would see everyone automatically and you would only ever make a Perception check if (1) there was a reason you wouldn't see something, such as an object that was deliberately hidden, or (2) if the target was making a Stealth check which you have to oppose.
Maybe one way to solve it is to have decreasing penalties/range. Up to 50 ft., -1 per 10 ft. Then up to 300 ft., -1 per 50 ft. After that, -1 per 200 ft. So a distance of 2000 ft. would be a -18 to the spot check - effectively, if you're not nearsighted you can see it a medium-sized creature if you're looking for it. At 2500 feet plus, the average guy can't see a person unless there's favorable conditions. For seeing a huge creature such as an elephant, the distance is 4100 feet before it's impossible.
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A small note about the comments on real life sighting distances.
A bolt action rifle can fire at over 3.000'.
A WWII assault rifle was sighted and had a effective range of about 1.200'
Why? Simply because it had become evident that more than 90% of all the firefights were under the 1.200' range.
While it is possible to notice a human at a longer distance, unless we are in a featureless plain (and you can be sure most medieval plowed fields are not featureless, other terrain even less) there are plenty of obstacles cluttering our vision.
So while we can use stringburka suggestion or other similar suggestion in this thread, we should still use the 6d6x40' sighting distance for plains and the 6d6x20' for deserts unless we have already decide that the terrain is very favourable.
Remember that even things like the heat waves rising from the terrain, haze for dust or very thin fog can rapidly decrease the sight range.
Most medieval cultivated terrains had hedges, walls or trees that marked the border of the property, and often fields were small (especially for the American standard).
I still think it would be better if there was NO DC 0 listed for people not trying to hide.
If it wasn't listed, it would likely be assumed by all that you would see everyone automatically and you would only ever make a Perception check if (1) there was a reason you wouldn't see something, such as an object that was deliberately hidden, or (2) if the target was making a Stealth check which you have to oppose.
99% of us do assume you can see everything in plain sight though. The people who insist on making things harder than they have to be will do so anyway.
So you can see a castle a mile away, but not a castle-sized creature at the same distance?Exactly.
How, precisely, are these scenarios different? Assume the castle-sized creature is, like the castle, nonmoving and sitting in the open, without making a Stealth check.
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It seems like we are arguing the same point, that the rules as is are not appropriate to the situation and that the DM should modify them to fit
here is a quick table I came up with it needs work.
providing they have line of sight.
the DC to see a medium sized object 0-500 feet away DC 0
the DC to see a medium sized object 501-1000 feet away DC 10
the DC to see a medium sized object 1001-1500 Feet away DC 20
the DC to see a medium sized object 1501-2000 feet away DC 40
the DC to see a medium sized object 2001-2500 feet away DC 80
the DC to see a medium sized object 2501+ feet away DC 160
for each size catagory larger than medium treat the range as being 500 feet closer
for each size catagory smaller than medium treat the range as being 500 farther
so the DC to see a Castle from 2501+ feet away would be DC 0
but to notice the archers on the towers the DC is 160
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Nievus, I would add:
- a partial cover of 50% will decrease the size category by 1 level.
- a partial cover of 75% will decrease the size category by 2 levels.
So the DC to recognize a castle 2.500' away behind a vineyard as a castle will be 10, if failed you recognize that there is something but is too covered to be sure what it is (it can be a castle, a mansion or a unusual rock formation) [you can take 10, so spending a fee seconds you are sure that it is a castle].
If it is behind a forest and actually only the turrets are visible you need a 20 DC check.