Never had a problem with it being both honestly. Dramatic situations are the DM's and player's creation not the system's. If you want more drama you need to instill it as a DM or player not blame the system for the lack.
I never felt Pathfinder or even D&D were miniature games.
That's probably because i don't depend much on battlemats or miniatures.
Although they are funny, the recent videos on WotC with the Robot Chicken guys seemed weird to me because i saw them advancing their minis square by square, like on a boardgame. Something i never saw in any RPG game.
Hmm... I guess I just don't agree with your premise. I don't find that Pathfinder or D&D 3.5 (or earlier) are miniatures games that lack story. Which might be the answer you are searching for -- depending on how the DM and players USE the miniatures, they either become a focus of the game or an accessory that merely serves to facilitate the story and give a clearer picture of the action.
In the latter case, no 'house rules' are necessary.
I'm currently playing in 2 pathfinder games, one of which focuses on story and roleplaying (we've gone 3 or 4 sessions in a row without seeing combat) and we don't use a battle mat. Instead, things are often somewhat glossed over with AoE magic typically hitting a group of enemies (if they haven't closed with us or vice-versa.) Once melee is going on then it often becomes hit a few and not hit a party member or hit many and hit party members. It works well, relies on the GM to have a good mental picture of what's going on that they can convey to the players, and relies heavily on GM judgement. It lends itself to a more 'dramatic' kind of gaming and lets us do larger scale things without worrying about drawing it all out.
In my other game (high action-adventure Eberron) we go back and forth between non-map combats for intuitive setups and map combats for battlefields that are particularly tricky to negotiate or have many things going on. This is my preferred style. T-Rex comes charging out of a forest, there's not much point to having a map and a path, the players get the idea. A battle in a complex alchemist's lab on the other hand benefits from a map.
So, besides telling me "you need to instill it as a DM", give advice on how to instill it as a DM.
I hope these don't come across as too rote or cliche, but a few things work very well for my group and myself.
-- Equal emphasis. That is to say be aware of the balance in your game; don't spend too much more time in combat than you do on roleplaying. I go so far as to treat roleplaying opportunities with as much consideration as combat encounters.
-- Play up NPCs so that the players enjoy interacting with them. Essentially, get in character and don't be afraid to ham it up a bit,
-- Make sure that your plans for the evening include a few memorable events/scenes that have nothing to do with combat. For example, my last game went about 5 hours with only 2 'encounters' and only one of those turned into combat. The rest of the time was spent meeting important NPCs and the players planning, rubbing elbows with said NPCs, etc.
-- Go for broke during combat. Instead of thinking tactically, think dramatically. What would make the fight the most fun? Have the enemies react like they are in a movie fight . . . flipping tables for cover, ganging up to grapple the wizard and pin him . . . don't hesitate to use the environment or the combat maneuvers.
Hope that helps a bit . . .
Aside from a few (Two I think? I'd have to ask my wife.) experiments I haven't used miniatures since sometime in the 80s and the only experiences I have with a battle mat would be in a 3.5 Eberron game from a few years ago (and which I wasn't running). Nonetheless, I haven't had any problems with this in Pathfinder (or in my 3.0 game before that). So I don't think the game is in any way irrevocably tied to the tactical format.
This type of thing is probably why Tolkien's works were never done in a D&D format as the epicness of Middle Earth clashes with the way the rules are written.
I have played 1st and 2nd edition much more than 3rd or PF and have not yet played 4th, and in those days we used miniatures a lot, but we did not use grid or hex maps and we did not whip out the rulers and compasses to measure spell ranges or areas of effect. We played for the fun of it and for the story the DM was telling as we interacted with it and not for the number-crunching and precise measuring of every little thing that the newer editions sometimes seem to require to play.
I'm sorry it seems to me you are asking for changes to the rules for more drama without really knowing the rules. (I'm not making a judgement call here, I'm making sure I understand what is going on)
If that is the case I would suggest really figuring out the rules so that you are comfortable with them. They will handle situations like the fourth point as it stands, you just have to be comfortable with them and understand them to the point you aren't worried about doing such things.
If you have to ask, "Is that possible?" Instead of saying, "Using an upended table for cover takes a move action to flip the table, which also covers the hide check and provides him with full concealment. He also gets hard cover, and the wood has a hardness of 5 with 20 hp, and an AC of 9."
Heck you don't even have to tell the players what the table does for him other than the fact they can't see him... you just have to know the effects for when it happens.
I've ran without a mat, and I simply state general ranges to my players and if anything in in the way along the way. I really don't get what you are trying to do here I think, so I'll just leave that as my last bit and be on my way. Good luck and I hope you find what you need.
My misunderstanding . . .
Hmm. More to your point then, I hope:
4th Edition's DMG 2 is an excellent resource regardless of edition that at parts deals with this very issue -- How to instill a sense of drama into combat.
As you say, you are quite competent at creating a game with this feeling, you just want rules (or tweaks) for PF to accomodate it . . . well, in said book they mention most notably -
Terrain Powers. The key here being that you put focus on making the combat locale as much of a viable option as anything else the PCs could do. In 4e, this essentially relates to using powers offered by the 'terrain' in place of your own . . . throw a burning brazier, kick down a loose support, etc.
Likely, this is not new to you, but it can be helpful to make your player's aware of how they can interact with the environment (either outright telling them or hinting 'that wall looks like it could give at any second . . .'). You say you are familiar with the rules, so I doubt it would take too much effort to write up some PF flavored "terrain powers" for you.
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If I am still missing the point, and by dramatic you mean more 'free-form/movement heavy' you may want to look into eliminating AoO's, bumping up player's movement rates, or creating some more Combat Maneuvers that you think are dramatic (the throw Combat Maneuver, you grab a foe and fling him X squares, he takes 1d4 damage per square thrown, etc. . .)
Again, thinking out loud, hope something here helps.
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I like chase scenes and/or races. I've implemented them during different games using different strategies.
I helped create some racing games where you had to jockey for positions using different ability checks for different kinds of motions... with different penalties and bonuses based on either the vehicle or animal they were using (these were chariot races with either light or heavy chariots).
You'd make checks to jockey for positions slots, trying to meet a minimum DC AND the next highest check. I don't have all the details on hand, but it was exciting trying to catch up at different times.
Alternatively, we've used non-traditional combat as well. If an NPC was angered they might challenge some to a joust, honor duels (typically merciful weapons involved), fencing matches and or something else along those lines.
These have very much heightened the experience for people in our group, they don't typically use the mat either... but you can use the mat if you really wanted to.
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-Can- Pathfinder capture a dramatic tone or is it irrevocably tied (due to DnD having been derived from a miniatures game) to being tactical?
We use "Chronicle Points" as a super action dice/drama dice system to have a rule to change the rules and give it that dramatic effect.
[b]Chronicle Points [b]
Chronicle Points:
Chronicle Points allow you to spend “points” to change some aspect of the game beyond the normal rules.
You will get 5 chronicle points at every level, loosing them if they are never spent before your next level. You will also get more as granted by DM whim.
Spending a point is an Immediate Action. In order to spend a action point, you must provide a narrative as to WHY something special is happening. (NO 1/2 hearted "I swing harder"!!!)
You can use them for Mechanic Changes, or Minor Story Changes:
Mechanics Changes:
For your own PC, you can spend a point to do the following:
Re-roll a D20 roll, take the better roll
A character can spend 1 action point to gain another use of a class/feat ability that has a limited number of uses per day
At the beginning of a character’s turn, he may spend 1 action point as a free action to gain the benefit of a feat he doesn’t have for one full round.
During any round in which a character takes a full attack action, he may spend 1 action point to make an extra attack at his highest base attack bonus.
Spellcasters can spend 1 action point to recall any spell/slot cast previously
Second Wind: As long as you are not below zero HP, you heal 1d6 + your level.
You can spend a point to instantly stabelize.
You get to Coup-de-grace and eligible opponent, and the DM does not get to let all the NPCS use it.
You can also spend YOUR points to help other Player’s PC, but have to explain WHY your character would be able to do so. (And have it make sense) These should always either help the story, or be otherwise fun. For example:
“Mog says you not that tired, swing again!” (Let another PC reroll an attack)
“Mog says DUCK!” (Let another PC reroll an saving throw)
“I thought you were really good with that spell?” (Allow another PC to use a spell again)
“Mog think priest’s god is very powerful. Priest should try turning again” (Allow another to us a class ability that has been all used up)
For Minor Story changes: (Narrative control)
You won’t need to spend it to find gravel/stones in a dungeon to throw, or an Umbrella in the foyer of a Mansion. Sometimes you just want something to link up story wise that can’t be assumed, but is fairly Minor in the impact in the over all game. You use it to further the story, without totally changing the game.
Examples:
George’s Example: Mog is having trouble getting information from an innkeeper. Mog gives me a story point token. "I can't help but notice you're a Yankees fan. Me, Mog, is also big Yankee fan. Why don't you tell where all those guards are going." and then gets a bonus on gather information or I just hand over the information Mog needs
Ken’s Example: On a cold, dark, rainy night, the party having been beaten to a pulp needs some sanctuary. Rob hands over a story points. "In the distance, I see the remains of an old fort." Another example, may be in fighting a werewolf without a weapon, a story point could be used to see a glint of silver next to the remains of a former victim.
Cyrus’s Example: “You mean that NPC wants that item we left ALL THE WAY BACK IN TOWN? GTFO! Wait…. Wait… you know what? I did actually pack that… here is it is!” (Action point used)
Note: Major NPCs and Villians will get these as well.
*** The DM reserves the right to modify this system at any point in time.
Every d20 game I've played in ends up with people counting how many hexes they are from where they want to be and playing the game like chess. They factor in attacks of opportunity the same way. Unless I'm mistaken, the rules encourage this. That has nothing to do with dramatic combat.
So, one option is to get rid of the battle mat.
Or, get rid of rules that encourage square-counting. I've completely scrapped AoO in my game. They just don't exist. I'm also going to work on a system that puts some mystery back into area of effect spells. I'm tired of fireballs so precisely placed that they have pinpoint accuracy.
You could also just tell people to stop counting squares. You move while you count, and there are no do-overs. If you come up short, too bad. If you provoke AoO, too bad. If you center your fireball in the wrong location, too bad.
So, besides telling me "you need to instill it as a DM", give advice on how to instill it as a DM.I hope these don't come across as too rote or cliche, but a few things work very well for my group and myself.
-- Equal emphasis. That is to say be aware of the balance in your game; don't spend too much more time in combat than you do on roleplaying. I go so far as to treat roleplaying opportunities with as much consideration as combat encounters.
-- Play up NPCs so that the players enjoy interacting with them. Essentially, get in character and don't be afraid to ham it up a bit,
-- Make sure that your plans for the evening include a few memorable events/scenes that have nothing to do with combat. For example, my last game went about 5 hours with only 2 'encounters' and only one of those turned into combat. The rest of the time was spent meeting important NPCs and the players planning, rubbing elbows with said NPCs, etc.
-- Go for broke during combat. Instead of thinking tactically, think dramatically. What would make the fight the most fun? Have the enemies react like they are in a movie fight . . . flipping tables for cover, ganging up to grapple the wizard and pin him . . . don't hesitate to use the environment or the combat maneuvers.
Hope that helps a bit . . .
These are very good suggestions, especially the tip for dramatic combat. As a DM, try to get inside the monster/bad guy's head and act how they would in terms of actions on your turn. Even creatures of the same "type", such as goblins, bugbears, and hobgoblins, all behave drastically different in combat. Don't be afraid to forgo tactical choices in favor of a more emotional, dramatic response. Have the bad guy take a few AoO's as he charges past some of the party to get at the one he hates the most...
Takes a little extra concentration, but the player's responses when you do make it well worth it. It helps to make the monsters feel more dynamic, and less like a set of stats.
This is the kind of discussion I'm looking for.
So, now that you've gotten rid of the hex map, how do you determine who is in and who is outside of the area of effect of a spell?
Well, to be clear, I've not got ridden of the map. I've de-emphasized it.
But, back in the day, we didn't have fancy battle mats or miniatures. The wizard would say, "I want to fireball the orcs. How many can I get without hitting my allies?" The DM would say, "Well based on what's happened so far, you could get five of them."
IOW, going matless requires both more description from everyone and more flexibility from everyone.
I would suggest always knowing the general square footage of any encounter, including physical barriers like columns, walls, etc. If you are going to more basic (abstract) rules to move away from the grid, then there is going to be more DM fiat involved in the process.
As a general rule, any major construction, or landmarks should be mentioned as part of describing the area, and be key to note what areas the character can not see through, or beyond. If they move to another location, mention when the characters sees something new.
If a character or creature falls within an area that is borderline in regards to affect, first take into account any barriers, then use the system in place for concealment, and use a base percentage roll to determine if something will be affected.
I am not well versed on rules, but you want a quick table to reference, and allow a simple roll to determine if something is affected based on your criteria. Like a 20/50/75/90 percent chance of missing a creature, or whatever scale you choose.
Still, the fact is that the game mechanics have changed substantially since then and a -great- deal of the current game rules depend on battle mats.
My impression is that it's more the case that the players depend on the battle mats. They've become so ubiquitous that even the idea of running a game without them seems like crazy talk. Really, IMO, the main thing that forces the "battle mat mentality" are AoO and sections of rules that talk about measurements in terms of squares.
So, I say give this a try: chunk the mat for a session along with AoO.
If that seems too radical, I do have a playtest set combat rules compatible with PF that tries to de-emphasize the mat. See here for more info.
But, back in the day, we didn't have fancy battle mats or miniatures. The wizard would say, "I want to fireball the orcs. How many can I get without hitting my allies?" The DM would say, "Well based on what's happened so far, you could get five of them."I know. I still remember the first time I saw a battle mat - I didn't know what it was. I thought it was something one of the engineering students had for a class.
I started with first edition way back in the 80s.
Still, the fact is that the game mechanics have changed substantially since then and a -great- deal of the current game rules depend on battle mats.
The rules as they are right now would be very difficult to enforce in their entirety without battle matts. But I agree with the idea of de-emphasizing it. No do overs, no counting ahead, you point to the square where you are hurling the fireball and then check to see what you hit. Or you move your mini immediately on your turn and declare your action, or you delay untill you know what you want to do.
I think if you want to emphasize drama and tension over the tactics, add in time. Get an hour glass or a large screen timer. 30 seconds no more for your turn. It will definately turn up the drama, and de-emphasize the over tactical approach of a minuature game.