Is it just me and the groups I play with, or are others wishing the person/monster on the cover of the events wasn't also a bit of a (often major) spoiler?
Josh, any chance the images on the covers can be of something other than what usually seems to be the main or most challenging adversary in the adventure?
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Is it just me and the groups I play with, or are others wishing the person/monster on the cover of the events wasn't also a bit of a (often major) spoiler?
Josh, any chance the images on the covers can be of something other than what usually seems to be the main or most challenging adversary in the adventure?
Sorry, it is just you and the groups you play with :) If someone doesn't want the adventure to be spoiled then they don't browse the scenario catalogue. If the GM doesn't like the cover of the scenario spoiling the adversaries then he/she should not print it off with the scenario. I never print pages 1 or 2 of the PDF since they are completely unnecessary to run the scenario and only consume toner, just like the ads in the back.
To answer the OP's concern, in 17 months of Pathfinder Society you're the first complaint I've heard. :-) I know we're brainstorming the look for the next season of scenarios, but I can't imagine the monster-of-the-month covers to change.
You may not have heard about it, but I know @20 people that play this campaign to varying degrees of involvement (2nd to 10th + level) and across the board they agree, the covers take away from some of the fun (to a certain and not insignificant degree) when they realize its also the major opponent in the adventures.
Maybe most people don't realize the connection or they enjoy the "insider information".
While trying to avoid seeing them is an option, its simply not always possible, not all GMs are considerate or think its a big deal. And some people are the group planners for what to play next, or just like to see what's coming down the pike for future adventures.
Maybe I am "old school" but I find that a good part of the fun of an adventure is the "unknown" and when that's removed, so is some of the enjoyment. It certainly makes a "mystery" adventure less mysterious when the cover has a picture of a shape-changing creature on it.
Regardless, thanks for the fast response.
Director of Brand Strategy
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When I run scenarios, I generally don't print the cover both to save ink and so players don't get a hint of what's coming. I know other GMs in my group who do the same. That said, I like the look of the covers and think the monster art is a great way to reuse existing art and make the scenarios more than just text and maps.
I print the cover just because I am very visual guy.
I play magic the gathering and if I see a card even for a moment I know what it is if it is used often but on the other hand if I am told something which is used in the same frequency I will have to think for a moment.
So for me it's more just the mental thing of having me fire off on all cylinders from the start...
May sound a little silly but as I understand it I am not unique in the whole pictures vs text thing.
Plus even if they do know, I know that jaws is a movie about a shark that kills people.
I even know the end.
Whats the bet the I'll enjoy it if I watch it?
Or even the something more recent the dark knight, I have watched I know what happens yet each time I watch it I still enjoy it.
And this is something that is static.
I can't see how an adventure could be worse with cover art...
My initial response was: "Pathfinder Society modules have covers?"
I'm a little confused; why do players need to be looking at the modules at all?
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I haven't heard of any complaints from the people that I DM for. However... I don't print out the front two pages (as has been said it pretty much has no use for DMing and is a large waste of ink). Wouldn't this apply to any normal module though that is ran in the existence of D&D?
I'd just suggest not printing off / not bringing the front two pages. If that's not possible... buy the PFRPG DM Screen and hide the module!
I feel that some folks have supported my notion. That a few folks have said "I don't print/show the covers to the players" is, imho, sort of proving my point. That the GM has to take these steps shows that this is spoiler information, and I feel most players and GMs would prefer to avoid that.
Maybe not all players see the covers, but its not like they are hidden. One doesn't even need to be actively looking for this stuff to see it. If anyone spends any time on Paizo's PFS site, the lists (and covers) of best-selling events is prominently displayed on the side, as they are under description of the events for each Season.
I am all for cool graphics/maps/pictures etc. I just think, with the library of images Paizo must have available, images could be put on the covers that are not also spoiler info for the event. Something like an image of a city, or an NPC that is not the main antagonist/opponent.
If Josh doesn't want to make that change, that is his choice. I just feel that basic intuition says that most people would prefer to not have this information available (both as GMs not wanting to give away info too quickly and players looking for the unknown or a surprise).
Regardless of what happens, I've said my peace.
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I print the covers and bind the whole thing with report covers that are transparent. None of my player have any problems with spoilers.
IMHO, at least to of the six covers of adventures don't really have clues really work as spoilers. One gives such a weak spoiler... well it really isn't worth mentioning.
Since I am binding the adventures in the report covers, I would hate to loose the art. I would like to be able to look at the cover and remember why I might want to run it again.
But that is my opinion. YMMV.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I feel that some folks have supported my notion. That a few folks have said "I don't print/show the covers to the players" is, imho, sort of proving my point. That the GM has to take these steps shows that this is spoiler information, and I feel most players and GMs would prefer to avoid that.
I mentioned that I don't print the covers not to say that the covers should change but to say that, with a pdf-only product, it's always the GM who controls what is and isn't printed. I prefer to use my color toner to make nice player handouts, usually on cardstock, as opposed to a cover and ads that no one will ever see and won't help me as a GM.
I don't think the covers are any worse than the covers of the APs, which frequently depict major enemies the PCs will face in that adventure. The difference here is that the GM can choose not to print the cover instead of tearing up his $20 book. Showing something the PCs are going to face is an excellent marketing tool, since I am sure there are GMs who are looking for adventures to run and see a cool monster on the cover and pick it up for that reason alone. Furthermore, Paizo uses the PFS scenarios as a way of offsetting some of the cost of producing 320 page monster books with art on every page.
If I change the cover, the players can still go to the website and read the description and get some spoilers there.
So then if I make the descriptions vague enough to be spoiler free, they can visit the GM boards and read the threads about each scenario.
So then if I ban all discussion on paizo.com about each scenario to keep everything spoiler free, they'll find new and creative ways to find out.
My point is: if they're going to cheat, they're going to cheat. I'm not convinced that the monster on a cover is going to give them any more information than an entire spoiler-filled thread about a scenario is.
You have a point, one I appreciate, but I'm not going to change our covers to avoid spoilers when there are much more efficient ways to cheat.
:-)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Josh, I see your point, but I don't think Frozen Tundra is worried about players who are trying to cheat; I think he's concerned about players who aren't trying to cheat, but are getting the unwelcome spoilers dumped in their laps.
It's probably the same reason you haven't titled any of the PFS scenarios something like "Terror of the Vampire Tentamort".
For what it's worth, I like the visual cues on the covers, which help me organize the scenarios when I'm trying to find a particular adventure to run. And I agree with the simple expedient people are offering: don't leave the covers hanging around in a place the players can see.
Fair enough. I like your proposal--don't let them see the cover. :-)
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If I change the cover, the players can still go to the website and read the description and get some spoilers there.
So then if I make the descriptions vague enough to be spoiler free, they can visit the GM boards and read the threads about each scenario.
So then if I ban all discussion on paizo.com about each scenario to keep everything spoiler free, they'll find new and creative ways to find out.
My point is: if they're going to cheat, they're going to cheat. I'm not convinced that the monster on a cover is going to give them any more information than an entire spoiler-filled thread about a scenario is.
You have a point, one I appreciate, but I'm not going to change our covers to avoid spoilers when there are much more efficient ways to cheat.
:-)
I'm going to say that I agree completely with Josh on this one. I for one would be railing on him that the covers lack relevance if they had a picture of a monster that was not in any tier of the mod. (edit: If i even noticed.)
If you don't want to spoil a mod for the players don't print the cover. If your players are sharp enough to remember which monster is on which cover from their prior shopping for mods, they should also be able to handle the difference between in character and out of character knowledge.|
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Something I forgot to mention. In my online games I tend to use those art pieces while playing. Once I get to the iconic monster/enemy I generally will pop out the picture and go "And this is what you're fighting!"
Same can be said for in person play (although that's really only with PF Modules... as I generally don't print the covers on PFS scenarios).
With that I'd really prefer that the cover art stay, I really like the completeness and artistic value it adds to the Paizo products.
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Creative Director
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Covers actually SHOULD serve as spoilers. Actually, I'll refine that. They should serve as teasers. In the same way movie previews serve as (and indeed are called) teasers. Same with an adventure's title. If there's no way to get an idea of what kind of adventure you're going to play or run... how are you supposed to know if you're going to like it?
More importantly, if you have a vague idea of what kind of adventure you're going on, a good player will adapt his style to fit that adventure and to help resolve its storyline. Naughty players who try to use an adventure's cover to game the system certainly exist, but as Josh explains above they can also lurk on messageboards where the adventure's being discussed or read the websites on which it's being sold and so on.
So don't expect us to change too much about how we do covers, I guess is what I'm saying. We DO try to avoid blatant spoilers where we can... but sometimes the need to have an evocative and exciting cover for sales reasons alone trumps that.
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Personally, the very few covers I've seen before playing the adventure all triggered the same reaction: "Oh man, we're gonna have to fight that?"
....and that's about it. Really, just seeing the bad guy doesn't mean you know all his stats, abilities, and a perfect tactic to beat him. And honestly if that has any effect in the game, i.e. a PC trying to disguise himself as the baddy, just rule that the character wouldn't know what he looks like.
You're the DM after all, if a player gains an unfair advantage whether through cheating or accident, its your job to balance it out with an equal disadvantage.
In the example above (PC disguising as enemy), if for some reason the "PC wouldn't know what he looks like" excuse won't work, let him go through with it.... then send the city guard after him ;)
I can see the OP's point. It is a bit of a spoiler. In a classic sense, however, it has been a long standing tradition to put an encounter on the cover.
Compare Pathfinder Society Scenario #7: Among the Living to Village of Homlet, both have Zombies on the cover. Another example is Pathfinder Society Scenario #18: The Trouble with Secrets and Tomb of Horror. Both have a Vampire woman on the cover.
I guess my question is: what do you put on the cover instead? Nothing? An unrelated landscape? Lem flexing his Gnomish physique for the ladies?
Josh, I see your point, but I don't think Frozen Tundra is worried about players who are trying to cheat; I think he's concerned about players who aren't trying to cheat, but are getting the unwelcome spoilers dumped in their laps.
It's probably the same reason you haven't titled any of the PFS scenarios something like "Terror of the Vampire Tentamort".
This is exactly what I am saying. Cheaters are cheaters and should be handled appropriately (with floggings and salt poured in wounds) but not my worry in this instance.
Its the people that aren't trying to do anything (but have and use their eyes) and get information by accident that lose a little (or a lot, depending on perspective) of the enjoyment of the adventure.
Some of us may be the organizer of what our groups/cons/games days play so it is literally impossible to avoid this information, evne if we are not going to GM everything or anything.
Also, I agree that artwork is cool and can help make an adventure standout, be organized, etc. I am just saying, there are options for artwork on covers that can be relevant/teasers that are not also spoilers. If its a dungeon adventure, put the entrance to a cave or the frame of an old archway on the cover. If the adventure is about recovering a lost sword, put a cool blade on the cover. With what I assume is a massive selection of art Paizo has, there has to be many options for art that have nothing to do with monsters inside the adventure.
I am not trying to be troublesome, but I do not think everyone that has responded has thought this through, or is thinking about the perspective of everyone. To some of us, the presence of such detail does detract from the quality of the experience.
Also, I’ve yet to hear what this artwork adds that cannot be replaced by something else that is equally adventure-cool and relevant but not detail revealing.
I am not trying to be troublesome, but I do not think everyone that has responded has thought this through, or is thinking about the perspective of everyone. To some of us, the presence of such detail does detract from the quality of the experience.
Once you pointed out that the covers are visible in the Paizo store, I understood how you might see some unwanted spoilers if you're going to GM some games and play others. But if you're at a game day and a GM is flashing around some spoilers (cover art or anything else), isn't that the GM's fault?
Covers actually SHOULD serve as spoilers. Actually, I'll refine that. They should serve as teasers. In the same way movie previews serve as (and indeed are called) teasers. Same with an adventure's title. If there's no way to get an idea of what kind of adventure you're going to play or run... how are you supposed to know if you're going to like it?
More importantly, if you have a vague idea of what kind of adventure you're going on, a good player will adapt his style to fit that adventure and to help resolve its storyline. Naughty players who try to use an adventure's cover to game the system certainly exist, but as Josh explains above they can also lurk on messageboards where the adventure's being discussed or read the websites on which it's being sold and so on.
So don't expect us to change too much about how we do covers, I guess is what I'm saying. We DO try to avoid blatant spoilers where we can... but sometimes the need to have an evocative and exciting cover for sales reasons alone trumps that.
I agree that covers should serve as teasers. But I think the movie analogy is a bit inaccurate.
First, a movie is something I just watch, I can't affect it at all. An adventure, well that's something we as players interact with, the interaction is the whole point!
Second, when sitting down to play any adventure, if Paizo published it, I begin assuming it will (or should) be a quality event, and that shouldn't (and likely won’t) be heightened by a teaser/blurb/cover art. However, blurbs or cover art have ruined things by giving away story points (even as simple of what kind of monster is behind the dastardly deeds).
Third, a blurb can be very good by telling folks what the adventure is generally going to be about and still not give away (a/the) key plot points. Same with a movie trailer or artwork. The Book of Eli is a prime example. DUH! he was carrying a Bible, but that’s not the relevant part of the story that makes things interesting.
The "type" of adventure has little to do with the sort of opponents you may be facing. I personally find it very enjoyable when I (as a player) am going into some dungeon and have no idea what monsters lurk there where as if I do know ahead of time the anticipation is substantially lessened. Call me crazy, but that unknown - that anticipation & surprise - is a big part of the fun of playing the game. Knowing ahead of time takes away much of the unknown.
I am not talking about affecting the outcome of the adventure by using upfront info, I am talking about preserving the fun factor for the players by keeping certain things unknown (which is half the fun, imo).
If an adventure is called "Against the Beholders" and the blurb and opening info from whomever sends you on the mission says "there's 17 beholders on that mountain which happens to be where some valuable scrolls are believed to be hidden in an old temple. Go clean them out and get the goods!" then, by all means put a beholder on the cover (I'd assume there is/are other interesting plot points to be revealed).
But if its called "Me So Hungry" because the caravans bringing food to a city aren't making it and no one knows why, please don't put a blue dragon on the cover if he's what's eating it all. Let that info be discovered as he swoops over a sand dune when the party is following scraps of discarded food crates across the desert.
If the big twist of the adventure is having the PCs find out exactly what the main antagonist is then please, don't put an obvious picture of what they are on the cover!
I do disagree that all covers don't have major spoilers (more do than do not, I feel) especially some kinds of adventures. If there is an encounter with a woman asking for help and I know there's a succubus on the cover, as a player, this encounter likely got a lot less fun/interesting because try as I would to keep IC and OC info separate, there is still nothing making me (the player) forget this is probably a succubus. Where if the cover art is of a pretty lady who looks like she needs help then I have no clue that such a monster is involved in the adventure but the art is still relevant. The situation is much more enjoyable when the party figures out that senorita was not just a nice needy lady (one way or another).
If the cover art of the adventures is mostly a marketing/sales decision then all I have to say is "wow". I am far less positive about my initial reaction towards Paizo in general, which is to say that Paizo's mission statement seems (and should be) more about putting out quality gaming materials than marketing edicts and sales figures. I understand each has its place, but I feel one should not detract from the other, nor be a victim of the other’s demands. And if the main reason to put the monsters in the covers of these adventures is to try and show off the cool artwork in the Beastie books in hopes of increasing sales then.....”WOW” (and not in a good way).
There is little to be gained by putting a specific/integral monster graphic on the cover, but there is at least the significant possibility of having a lot to lose. And there's options for other art that keeps the notion of traditional adventure-specific art alive and well.
I think what I am/was asking for/suggesting is more consideration for what is put on the cover (words and/or artwork).
And I say “was” as I feel this already a dead issue from the perspective of the Paizo staffers that have posted - which makes me ask myself why I am still posting??!! call me stubborn I guess :)
Once you pointed out that the covers are visible in the Paizo store, I understood how you might see some unwanted spoilers if you're going to GM some games and play others. But if you're at a game day and a GM is flashing around some spoilers (cover art or anything else), isn't that the GM's fault?
Who's fault it is at that point is kinda irrelevant to me, though I'd certainly be appreciative of a GM or con organizer that takes care to hide the covers from the players - though I've found most do not seem ot do this, they have other things to worry about.
Its the fact I am now "in the know" is what is more important and disappointing, to me.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Its the fact I am now "in the know" is what is more important and disappointing, to me.
How is that different than showing a drow on the cover of a Second Darkness adventure or a genie on the cover of one of the later Legacy of Fire adventures, or a devil, a vampire, or tiefling on the cover of something from Council of Thieves? In any of these cases, yes, players risk finding out what they're facing, but luckily there are more than one encounter in an adventure. Or a more cinematic image like the cover of a module in which the iconics are fighting a bunch of zombies or a dragon or a ninja assassin?
What you're suggesting seems like you want adventures to have titles that don't say what they are and covers that are boring. While I don't think the title or cover of an adventure is ever as important as the content within, it's not a very good business model to not try to make the most captivating book covers possible. And a picture of a woman asking for help is certainly not something that's going to get me reaching for my wallet.
For PFS scenarios specifically, one has to also consider that the budget for art on them is much smaller than for other products, and there simply aren't time or resources enough to commission new artwork to go on the cover of each scenario. By using generic monster art for things which aren't unique, it enables there to be art in the scenarios at all.
I apologize in advance if my scenario, entitled "The Pallid Plague," ruins anything when you play it. The hope was to provide people a hint that it might include both a plague and something involving Urgathoa, goddess of plagues, who is also known as the Pallid Princess. I don't know what will be on the cover yet, but I hope it doesn't ruin your play experience.
I can certainly appreciate that the OP feels very strongly about this. I have no plans to change the way we do covers, though.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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In the spirt of fighting fire with fire, I would like to submit that the covers should contain [less/more] sexy art. I [hate/love] [cheesecake/beefcake] artwork that appeal only to prurient interests. [Although/Because] sex sells, I [do/don't] think this type of work reflects well on Paizo or gamers in general.
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In the spirt of fighting fire with fire, I would like to submit that the covers should contain [less/more] sexy art. I [hate/love] [cheesecake/beefcake] artwork that appeal only to prurient interests. [Although/Because] sex sells, I [do/don't] think this type of work reflects well on Paizo or gamers in general.
I heartily agree with perhaps 50% of your point.
Who are you again?
In the spirt
Best. Typo. Ever.
I'm going to say that I agree completely with Josh on this one.
Did anyone else just hear the seventh seal break?
Who are you again?Awesome, in its purest and most elemental form.
Yes, that post was particularly awesome. That was a nice thing to say. So. Who are you?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Yes, that post was particularly awesome. That was a nice thing to say. So. Who are you?Who are you again?Awesome, in its purest and most elemental form.
Obi-Wan never told you?
Long time listener, first time poster. I can't believe he never told you about me.
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Is it just me and the groups I play with, or are others wishing the person/monster on the cover of the events wasn't also a bit of a (often major) spoiler?
Josh, any chance the images on the covers can be of something other than what usually seems to be the main or most challenging adversary in the adventure?
This is kind of ridiculous. The artwork is awesome, they are a teaser and it probably helps sell the scenarios. Like Josh said, if a player wants to get hints, they will probably be able to get hints anywhere online. As a GM if you feel the cover gives away the scenario, by all means don't have the cover out. Pretty simple.
Personally, I find it very handy, so that when they come to the creature, I can pull out the cover and say "Look how awesome/beautiful/scary this thing is" and I don't see any complaints from my judges or players.
Of course, one could be an evil DM, and run one adventure, but use the cover of another. Imagine playing a scenario based in a frozen tundra, but seeing a scenario with a crocodile or a chimera on it.
Messing with the players' heads is half the fun of DMing. Keep them guessing!
Or if you really wanted to mess with them you have a rifts cover on it and ask them about thier sagacity.