Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Looking for some thoughts from the collective wisdom of the boards. In my 4e campaign, two of the players are not going to be able to make our regular games for a few months. In order to justify their absence from the party, I employed the old chestnut of having them thrown in prison. But, rather than have all their equipment stored in a chest located 5' away from their cell door, I was a bastard and forced them to drop it off the back of a wyvern on their way there.
I haven't looked too deeply into the core rules yet, and am wondering if anyone has a sense of how effective unarmed characters will be in 4e. The characters are a kobold rogue and a dragonborn warlord. About the only natural weapon they have is the dragonborn's breath weapon, and that's not a really significant threat at 12th level. Any thoughts on how to handle this? Should I set up a skill challenge for them to get improvised weapons (a club, shank, etc) and then further skill challenges to let them disarm/steal weapons from the guards?
Any prison that's built to hold paragon characters had better be pretty solid! I'm talking magical wards, floating castle, extraplanar stuff. This is a really good opportunity to throw something really memorable at the players!
Still, there should be the opportunity for heroes to arm themselves and escape, and I think this is a great opportunity to use a skill challenge. A simple shank in the hands of a paragon rogue is a pretty nasty weapon if you let them treat it like a dagger, and after you take out the first guard, the warlord should be well set on equipment. Have them work their way up, through successive skill challenges and combats, taking out higher level guards who carry magical equipment, until they're back to where they should be in terms of magic items.
Looking for some thoughts from the collective wisdom of the boards. In my 4e campaign, two of the players are not going to be able to make our regular games for a few months. In order to justify their absence from the party, I employed the old chestnut of having them thrown in prison. But, rather than have all their equipment stored in a chest located 5' away from their cell door, I was a bastard and forced them to drop it off the back of a wyvern on their way there.
I haven't looked too deeply into the core rules yet, and am wondering if anyone has a sense of how effective unarmed characters will be in 4e. The characters are a kobold rogue and a dragonborn warlord. About the only natural weapon they have is the dragonborn's breath weapon, and that's not a really significant threat at 12th level. Any thoughts on how to handle this? Should I set up a skill challenge for them to get improvised weapons (a club, shank, etc) and then further skill challenges to let them disarm/steal weapons from the guards?
There are still rules for improvised weapons and a lot of powers would, I think, work with any weapon really (hence even improvised). Certainly the Rogue might seriously miss his dagger but much of the time they won't be 'that' bad off. Once they manage to steal some daggers things start to look up considerably.
You'll have to be a little easy on them in terms of monster level but I suspect that 4E characters are actually less dependent, on average, on their equipment. They are out some awesome magical loot but without stat boosters in the game thats not as huge as one might think.
To some extent all 4E characters are spell casters from whom you can't steal spell books. They have all their powers and if the powers are not working as well as they were with a +3 sword of smackery they still do work.
I'd stay away from a skill challenge to make clubs and what not - (what if they fail? No improvised weapons for you ever? How does one fail at dismantling a table for clubs? How do you plan to role play not being able to throw a rock?). Just let 'em have them if its reasonable that they could dismantle an object for such weapons
Now there could be a skill challenge to sneak up on guards and swipe their swords out of their sheathes but not for busting up a table.
Not to worry, much, on the "lack" of weapons part because unarmed attacks are already considered weapons (though improvised in this case), so those powers requiring them can still be used.
But, either in place of or in addition to that, I would always recommend a skill challenge. I think they're always fun. Perhaps a series of skill challenges: making makeshift tools from debris in cell, snagging keys from sleeping guard, navigating through unfamiliar and maze-like corridors, bluffing way past patrols, stuff like that.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Any prison that's built to hold paragon characters had better be pretty solid! I'm talking magical wards, floating castle, extraplanar stuff. This is a really good opportunity to throw something really memorable at the players!
It's a prison built into the side of a volcano that was once used by tieflings to hold devils and which currently houses a red dragon in the lowest levels (who is relying on the wards on the prison to keep him hidden/protected from the rest of the region). :-)
I'm going to try and set up the front gate to make it so dangerous that the PCs don't dare try to go out that way, leaving them with the need to go into the lowest levels of the prison where there is an escape route into the underdark.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'd stay away from a skill challenge to make clubs and what not - (what if they fail? No improvised weapons for you ever? How does one fail at dismantling a table for clubs? How do you plan to role play not being able to throw a rock?). Just let 'em have them if its reasonable that they could dismantle an object for such weapons
Now there could be a skill challenge to sneak up on guards and swipe their swords out of their sheathes but not for busting up a table.
Maybe the weapons they manufacture are of lesser quality if they fail.
But, that is a good point. The improvised weapons would be just one of the elements of the skill challenge. It'd probably be something like:
Acrobatics/Disable Device: get out of cell
Athletics/Disable Device: make a shank
Stealth: sneak up on guards
etc.
I am curious why you would not play out the combat for them getting the weapons from the guards. Are the guards going to be anywhere near the PC's level? I would assume not. 12th level guards at a prison? Surely a 12th level PC can overpower a 1st level guard. Once they get some equipment, then they can take on the 12th level Chief of Prison Showers.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I am curious why you would not play out the combat for them getting the weapons from the guards. Are the guards going to be anywhere near the PC's level? I would assume not. 12th level guards at a prison? Surely a 12th level PC can overpower a 1st level guard. Once they get some equipment, then they can take on the 12th level Chief of Prison Showers.
That's part of why I posted, though I was bad about expressing it. I would like to provide them with opportunities to scavenge/steal weapons, but I also want to make sure I understand how the combat would work if it broke out and they were still unarmed. I don't think there are any mechanics for disarming/stealing weapons while in combat, so I'd need to come up with some (and a skill check or skill challenge is probably the appropriate tool).
The prison is a little on the epic side of the scale, so the rank and file guards aren't 1st level peons. I was eyeballing them at around level 10 given the party's diminished numbers and resources, but that's more just me throwing a dart at the wall.
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The warlord should be just fine. All of his abilities work just fine punching or kicking.
The rogue, is totally screwed unless they can find a dagger should a fight break out. Every attack power and sneak attack requires some kind of specific weapon to work.
Of course, if they just end up fighting minions it doesn't matter either way.
You can use all weapon keyword powers with an unarmed attack (unless it specifically requires a certain type of weapon: the rogue would not get sneak attack damage for instance). It is treated as any other weapon except you gain no proficiency bonus with it; it does 1d4 damage. Opportunity attacks are identical to that with other weapons: so if you made a close attack unarmed you'd could provoke but no special cases just for being unarmed.
Hope that helps!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thanks! These posts are very helpful and just what I was looking for.
Am I missing anything else? The PCs will be less effective due to not having magic weapons or proficiency bonuses and their ACs will likely be terrible, so I'm leaning towards making the guards skirmishers or brutes and having them be lower level. Does that sound about right?
Ah, o.k. I would definitely allow improvised weapons. Maybe let the Rogue use a shard of glass as a dagger. I am not familiar enough with 4e to give you good advice about hard numbers. I would let the two PCs stumble upon a lone 10th level guard first and see how they fare. Then you can ratchet up the difficulty as needed.
This is a general strategy that has worked for me across systems and campaigns. Let the PCs wipe the floor with low-level threats and ratchet up as needed. I have never had a player complain that the first couple of encounters were too easy, so there is little danger of low-balling it.
Thanks! These posts are very helpful and just what I was looking for.
Am I missing anything else? The PCs will be less effective due to not having magic weapons or proficiency bonuses and their ACs will likely be terrible, so I'm leaning towards making the guards skirmishers or brutes and having them be lower level. Does that sound about right?
You could give the guards substandard equipment (eg. those running the prison may not have the resources or inclination to equip the guards well). Also, you could make the first 1 or 2 combats quite easy to judge the new power level of the de-geared characters and add more combatants to later fights (even in later rounds of same fight) based on that.
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I agree with the poodle. Start easy and work your way up to see what they can handle.
Also, in addition to having bad ACs, their attack bonuses will suffer too, so bear that in mind. Without their gear, the weapon-users will be between -4 and -7 to hit (no magic weapons, no proficiency bonuses, no weapon focus-type feats). The implement-users will be between -2 and -4 to hit.
Thankfully, it doesn't seem that either of the characters have a special ability that lets them escape as a standard or move action. That will make things easier for you I think.
I would avoid making the prison too extravagant. They may be just be entering paragon levels, but that doesn't change the fact that there are two of them without gear, and entire prison around them. To clarify, I would suggest the prison be created with the idea of being able to safely contain a 10th level character rather than making it a flying base known for holding back 18th level character.
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From my experience, the major drawback from lack of equipment would mean attack bonus and defenses dropping about three points (along with the additional AC drop from having no armor).
If they have no weapons, that puts them in a harder place. While there are listings for unarmed and improvised weapons in the equipment chapter, they don't give a proficiency bonus to attack rolls. Which means that they will be down about another three on their attack bonuses.
So, if you send up the party against monsters with similar levels, they will be hit more often, and will miss with most of their attacks. I would suggest sending at them guards that are 9th level at most and even suggest you don't send more than a 7th level monster until they get some mundane equipment. That way, the combat should be in a reasonable place as far as the characters getting hit and having their attacks land.
Finally, the unarmed and improvised weapons aren't likely to work at all for the rogue. Without a light blade, the rogue will be pretty much stuck with using basic attacks and no sneak attack. I don't expect that to be a fun combat for that player, so I would really say that if the kobold does end up with a improvised stabbing implement, just call it a light blade to ensure that they still have things to do.
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For getting, the equipment and tools needed to escape (or for making the actual escape of their cell), I would really suggest not putting it as a skill challenge. If they fail, that would mean that they are either removed from the game (dead or in prison forever) as result of three failed rolls or they have to start the challenge all over again. Neither seems very exciting and good to me.
I would suggest, instead, using skill challenges to find/make better equipment and avoiding conflict with the guards after they make their initial breakout.
If you really want to add detail to unarmed combat techniques, I believe the 4E monk from goodman games allowed you to take weapon properties or enchantments and use them as unarmed strikes. This would be a simple mechanic to implement, especially in an oriental flavor campaign.
Paragon characters will rip 1st level guards to shreds, equipment or not. A prison such as the one he's describing should have some special guards. He said it's in a volcano, and that immediately makes me think of Azer. Turns out they're a bit too tough for 12th level. You could modify them down a bit in the monster builder, that's really easy.
Other monsters that I think make nice prison guards are Duergar, and there's a few of them right in that level range. There's also a lvl 12 Fire Archon, which would be a great guy to have in a volcano themed adventure.
You figure: 4 encounters before an extended rest, so:
1. You start with a skill challenge that involves breaking out of the cells and getting some basic equipment. This skill challenge can include a few minor combats, too.
2. An easy level fight to overpower the guards at the prison's armory. Maybe you make this a bit tougher if they've alerted the guards by failing the skill challenge. After this encounter, they raid the armory and get level-equivalent gear. At this point, maybe you let them get a map of the prison or have them find out that the front gate is too heavily guarded to escape.
3. By this point, the prison guards know that something is up, they send a group of enforcers to lock down the party - normal fight. Alternately, you could have the party try to set up some kind of distraction, and use the prison guards to try and stop them.
4. Party tries to escape into the underdark area - the prison warden and his elite guards try to stop them. Hard/Boss Fight.
After that, the party escapes into the underdark section, where they can rest (the warden is dead, prison is in chaos, so noone is going to follow them.) After the rest, they begin exploring the underdark area.
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The 1e super module "Scourge of the Slavelords" and its previous RPGA component modules A1-A4 is a great little inspirational tool for creating the "you been captured, now get free" plot. In the supermodule (modules) the PCs are actually captured twice.
In the first scene they are at a party, when the town is attacked by slavers. After a tough fight with overwhelming odds (read: Deus Ex Machina) the PCs awake as slaves aboard a ship, destined to row until dead. There is a great scene where the ships captain picks a few choice peices of gear from among the PCs stuff, then tosses the rest of the "junk" overboard. Oh the horror! E. G. Gygax uses the same thing in the Mythus rpg as a "starter" adventure. Also very good for inspiration.
The other is inside the volcano town of Suderholme (sp?). The PCs are captured and thrown into prison, but the Deus Ex Machina in this case is when the volcano erupts, dumping the loincloth clad prisoners into the tunnels below. The PCs fight monsters (not humanoids with gear) through a series of tunnels before finally reaching the panicked streets of town.
I would suggest the same thing. Consider a "Delve" or two worth of encounters without gear:
The volcano erupts, the earth splits, and the PCs find themselves in a monster infested warren. Skill checks to find their way through the twisting tunnels, find usable makeshift weapons, and of course food and water. By the end of the 3 to 6 encounters (you're call) they'll have found makeshift armor composed of bits of rusty chain, ancient bronze breastplate, hides from the freshly killed Kruthik, etc. as well as makeshift weapons such as a half-eaten thigh bone of a dead ogre used as a club, obsidian shards (its ina volcano after all) used as daggers, etc.
The upcoming Dark Sun rules will apparently have some weapon breakage rules. I'd say on a natural one the weapon breaks, and on crit, the enemies don't do max damage, but instead the armor falls apart dropping the AC bonus by 2, that sort of thing.
The final encounter can be with a patrol of guards out to find and recapture the PCs. Now, suitably geared in the guards armor and weapons, the PCs can either attempt an assault on the Prisons well-fortified "underdark" entrance or go deeper into the underdark, looking for another way out...
Also, looking at it numerically - losing out on weapons means losing out on a +2 or +3 enhancement bonus to attack, damage and defenses, and a +2 or +3 proficiency bonus. One way to compensate for this is simply to use enemies that are 4 or so levels lower than you would normally throw in their way. Thus, the PCs can still feel reasonably effective with improvised weapons, while still having the experience of fighting their way free unarmed.
The proficiency issue should pick up quickly with the PC's overpowering a few guards and taking weapons and armour. Weapons could be Longswords, Spears, Daggers, Shortswords, clubs and possibly coming across a low level spellcaster(wizard or warlock) torturer to give the spell caster an impliment albeit a low level one. They could find a new aquisition of a good priest being tortured who if rescued could lend them his symbol as he's unable to use it due to injuries( arms lopped off, no healing surges).
The party could then seek escape into the mines( diamond or coal mines) and a skill challenge involving convincing the chained prisoners to help and guide them ( DIPLOMACY, STREETWISE)maybe DUNGEONEERING for more Navigation, HEALING if they must help the injured prisoners to convince them to help, ENDURANCE because of the heat, STEALTH to avoid further detection.They could even develope new friends, allies if they help some escape the prison that could come into the game in the future but to keep things moving the prisoners could tell them 'we must not linger too long, if they get wind of us they often call the garrison at the bottom of the volcano and lock the whole place down with elite guards, hell hounds and other brutish warriors'.
Of course just before they exit the big bad jailor who knows his prison sets a trap to crush the PC's spirits for trying to escape and a fight ensues where if the PC lose they come round back in the cells (keep some minions handy to bind the PC's wounds as the prisons lord wants the PC kept alive).
If they do lose they come round in another cell and the escape starts anew. They might even put the tougher characters in cells over the top of volcanic pits where due to the heat the hardier types lose a number of healing surges(unless they have Invulnerable vs Fire).