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WoTC introduced feats in Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel that stacked certain classes for class abilities. Such as Acetic Knight that stacked Monk and Paladin levels, or Daring Outlaw that stacks Rogue and Swashbuckler levels.
So how about a little love for the new Pathfinder classes? My girlfriend expressed interest in playing a Druid/Witch which is what got me thinking of these feats and will be my lead off suggestion.
The name of the feat I rogue'd from an alternate Witch build by SmiloDan which I feel was akin to this.
Druid of the Left Hand
Prerequisites: Hex class feature, Wild Shape 1/day
Benefit: Your druid and witch levels stack for the purpose of determining your number of Wild Shape uses each day, the creatures you may wild shape into, the number of hexes you gain, their difficulty to resist, and when you gain Major and Grand hexes.
Just an idea I had. Wanted to know if anyone else had some thoughts for the new classes. My apologies if this should have been in another thread.
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I would say that a single feat shouldn't be able to do as much as what you have done with this one. Both of the class features you are stacking are powerful core traits of their respective classes, making the character extremely powerful (potentially).
I've always liked the feats that (for features that are very powerful, like wild shape or hexes) increase your level by 4 to determine your abilities with it (to a limit of your character level). Possibly allowing them to be taken more than once.
Any feats that enable stacking of multiple classes would need to be watched very carefully, as some of those combinations are quite potent. Imagine 20th level domain powers with a 20th level bloodline for example. Compare that to 10th level in each. That power increase certainly warrants more than a single feat, in my opinion.
I'd at least make the feat "you can stack X class with Y class for Z feature from class Y."
In other words, keep the stacking to one major feature at a time. Splitting this feat into two would be closer to in-line with an appropriate power level, but still questionable.
The feats you are referencing are stacking a minor feature with a minor feature. In the case of Ascetic Knight it stacks for only smite evil damage and monk unarmed strike damage. It does not stack, say, flurry and unarmed strike damage with the entirety of the smite evil progression (extra uses and damage), which is more similar to the power of the proposed feat.
The daring outlaw feat seems to stack sneak attack with the grace class feature of the swashbuckler. This is something of a minor + major pairing, though sneak attack was more of a "medium" back then as it could only affect half the bestiary and the rest only if they didn't have full fortification. This isn't as big of an issue in PF.
Also keep in mind that many people view the "complete" books as a power creep that noticeably increased the power level of characters that utilized them.
Looking at these my recommendation stands to split the feat into two (one to stack wild shape with witch levels, one to stack hex with druid levels).
On a less critical note: I like the idea of multi-class supporting feats, as I find that multi-class characters feel more defined by roleplaying and less by what you're supposed to be. This particular one, though a bit too strong, is still a good idea IMO and I always appreciate people willing to put creative effort into the game.
WoTC introduced feats in Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel that stacked certain classes for class abilities. Such as Acetic Knight that stacked Monk and Paladin levels, or Daring Outlaw that stacks Rogue and Swashbuckler levels.
So how about a little love for the new Pathfinder classes? My girlfriend expressed interest in playing a Druid/Witch which is what got me thinking of these feats and will be my lead off suggestion.
The name of the feat I rogue'd from an alternate Witch build by SmiloDan which I feel was akin to this.
Druid of the Left Hand
Prerequisites: Hex class feature, Wild Shape 1/day
Benefit: Your druid and witch levels stack for the purpose of determining your number of Wild Shape uses each day, the creatures you may wild shape into, the number of hexes you gain, their difficulty to resist, and when you gain Major and Grand hexes.Just an idea I had. Wanted to know if anyone else had some thoughts for the new classes. My apologies if this should have been in another thread.
I'd have it stack for number of wild shapes per day, but not what creatures you can wild shape into. I also wouldn't make the feat able to grant Major or Grand hexes by stacking.
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Great suggestions guys, I appreciate the replies. I think I was really attempting to achieve "you can stack X class with Y class for Z feature from class Y." that Stabbity suggested, didn't really think through to the level of power a lv10/lv10 character could achieve.
I think over the next couple of days I'll design a few feats with the ideas you suggested and post them here in this threat. At least one for each of the new classes to be paired with a core class, I think.
Yeah, IMO the class stacking feats are generally overpowered, and ripe for some serious abuse. Take a quick look at Daring Outlaw; on the surface, it only stacks Grace and Sneak Attack and that seems to be a minor plus major ability stacking as stated before. Not too terrible if taken at face value.
A closer look at the BAB and Saves, however, will bring the power-up into better focus. A Swa 10/Rog 10 has full SA damage dice, a 17 BAB (vs. 15 for straight rogue), F+10/R+14/W+6 Saves (vs. F+6/R+12/W+6 for rogue or F+12/R+6/W+6 for swash). This higher BAB/SA advancement occurs throughout the levels as well, not just at peak levels.
Now, lets optimize a little. A Swa 16/Rog 4 has full SA damage dice, a 19 BAB (vs. 15 for straight rogue), F+11/R+13/W+6 Saves (vs. F+6/R+12/W+6 for rogue or F+12/R+6/W+6 for swash).
Consider, also, that these builds both qualify for 4 attacks per round before level 20 where a straight rogue only gets 3 attacks @ level 20 (discounting TWF obviously). Keep in mind that a balancing feature of the Rogue vs. Fighter is the difference in BAB and number of iterative attacks.
To be fair, lets look at what these builds give up. Trap sense, a very situational ability and probably won't be missed. The rogue 'Special Ability' a couple of times, but the Swashbuckler grants similar abilities so not such a big sacrifice. The optimized build's loss of Improved Uncanny Dodge is probably the most valuable ability lost, but the 10/10 build retains it. In either case, the sacrifices do not equal the power gained from a single feat.
To bring this back to the OP, make sure you take into account all the various pieces parts that are affected by the stacking of classes, not just the things you have stated directly in the feat. Taking a feat should provide tangible benefit to the PC, but some consideration to balance needs to be maintained to prevent overpowered or abusable designs.
Actually, most of the above posters missed the point of those feats entirely.
Those feats are all between the non-casting classes of 3.5. You, on the other hand, are doing the same for two casting classes.
3.5 Melee classes are acknowledged underdogs. Comparing this feat against the base classes is like comparing them against a PrC...of course they look worse. The classes are horrible from a balance standpoint.
What they were actually doing is bringing up the level of those non-casting classes with feats that actually improved by level.
Swashbuckler is a class no one takes. too limited.
Rogue had its own problems with BAB, skills that weren't worth much, and SA that was useless half the time.
Do you realize that the Fighter/Rogue feat, as originally written, was supposed to allow the character to gain full # of fighter bonus feats, AND Rogue SA? Instead, all it does is let the character qualify for the spec tree, and is basically useless on the fighter end.
Pathfinder does up the power of the base classes so that those feats really aren't needed anymore (although stacking Swash and Fighter wouldn't hurt). The mechanical problems of melee types do continue to exist, to some extent.
But spellcasters? Spellcasters never needed the power-up these feats represent.
Just to reiterate, the goal of those feats was to bring the Melee character up closer to the power of spellcasters, NOT to be compared against the core classes...because the core fighting classes are underpowered.
==Aelryinth
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So are you saying the feats are simply unnecessary or that it needs to powered down way under the level of the melee class based feats? Like instead stacking two minor class abilities, instead of 1 major and 1 minor?
I would say unnecessary. Spellcasters tend to not multiclass, due to spell progression. Melee is more likely to due to skill and BAB stacking better.