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Wow, that's alot of anti-Apple feeling that you're getting through.
I would suggest you debate the merits of Apple/non-Apple in another place, as this thread is about the viability of an iPad application endorsed by Paizo. I understand that you object to Paizo's support of Apple, but let's be honest, they already support Apple. They use Mac computers, many of them use iPhones, and they are investigating/developing an iPhone app. Your viewpoint on the matter in this thread does not belong. If you believe they shouldn't support Apple, I suggest starting another thread.
The only thing you haven't brought up within the thread is the viability of an iPad app given the limitations that the tablet has (as every single computer has limitations, so does the iPad - and yes it is a computer. Go look up the definition). I would suggest bringing up ideas on how the SDK and limitations of the iPad would not allow a DM companion/PFRPG app.
It would be amazing to see a 'tabletop helper' app for DMs, with their own view including controls and info...Are you reading my mind through microwaves? Because that's very in line where my mind had been at for years....
Sorry, I should have asked first,alot of people are sensitive about psychic privacy... :-)
How did I mis this awesome thread?!?
You're slacking! :P
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Tablet PCs have been around for a long time, and are very unsuccessful as they don't have much purpose to a majority of the consumer base. 10 years if I remember roughly when the first tablet came out, maybe a bit longer now.
Still, Paul Ruben does have one of the 50 in the United States.
Hehehehe!
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Tablet PCs have been around for a long time, and are very unsuccessful as they don't have much purpose to a majority of the consumer base. 10 years if I remember roughly when the first tablet came out, maybe a bit longer now.
Yes but Tablets have been heavy and expensive. This product could easily be the first step to replacing paper.
Tablet PCs have been around for a long time, and are very unsuccessful as they don't have much purpose to a majority of the consumer base. 10 years if I remember roughly when the first tablet came out, maybe a bit longer now.Yes but Tablets have been heavy and expensive. This product could easily be the first step to replacing paper.
I have been writing notes on the back of my hand for over 10 years now. :-)
(and there's even games: I can make my hand look like a mouth talking, and using ambient light can even project animations!)
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-1.Your wrong.
I don't want to hold a laptop in my hand, I don't want it taking up space on my table. I don't want to have a power cord snaking across the floor tripping people up. I don't want to worry about if the antivirus I'm using could be having problems and screwing up my game. I don't want to constantly worry about power levels and dimming features.
To much weight is given to the fact that this is not a full powered computer. No one said that this would replace your laptop, or PC. The fact of the matter is that most people don't need a full powered laptop and desktop PC.
The fact of the matter is that this device will work for many people. Mostly for people who already have an iPhone or iTouch.
And Pathfinder Apps aren't really all that needed. Plenty of things could be done as a cloud app or even just a plain web app.
Not to be pedantic, but really, if you're going to tell someone they're wrong, be careful to spell "you're wrong" right. <Grin>
Really, I get your wants. The problem is that the price point of the iPad is highly inappropriate for the little appliance you describe. You're looking for one of those nice LCD picture frames with a cell phone built in. Big deal. Problem is the iPad starts at $500, which is just nonsensical for what it brings to the (gaming) table. This is very much an application of the Apple Tax.
Community is all about different viewpoints, and you're entirely entitled to yours as I am mine. I just strongly object to Paizo investing any of their limited resources into an over-priced under-functioned device that's got such a ridiculous degree of vendor lock-in. A PFRPG app will probably never get approval for the Apple Store anyway, since it "facilitates magical congress with demonic creatures". Keep that in mind. You can't run anything Apple doesn't like and you don't get to learn what they don't like until after you've spent your time and money developing the offending app. The technology and the politics are...
iFart App. I am sure Pazio would have no problem. In fact if you truly look it is a small number of apps that are denied entry into the store.
Sean
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said a lot of stuff.
Yea well I've been doing IT work since the mid eighties. I used to work for HP. And now I work a fortune 500 company where we use mostly HP products. Saddly, the HP tablets just don't cut it. They run way to hot and run like pigs, and die within a year.
But it comes down to this, you don't like Mac products because you don't like restrictive licences. Most of the coders I know don't have a problem with that. Most of them like the stability offered by an environment that works one way consistantly. Much like Paizo likes working with the OGL. It had restrictions, not many, but there there and in thier RPG they have thier own licence that others must follow.
Companies and people do this all the time. To complain about a company doing this doesn't make any sense, but I do see this sort of thing happen in IT all the time. Some take a Mac side, some take a PC side, some take a lunix/unix side. (or Java/Oracle/whatever side) I'm system agnostoic. There are so many ways to get to where you want to get to tech wise, putting all of your eggs in one basket doesn't make any sense.
The more I talk to people you have 20 or more year in this industry, the more and more they talk about how they miss dumb terminals. The heavy lifting for programming was done on the back end. Web 2.0 isn't so much of smoke and mirrors scam as it is a Back to the Future idea. There are plenty of applications that are alrady out they are people are using. Scan these boards and you will see people who use Google apps, some even using Google Wave. Some of the GenCon games Paizo ran 2 years ago at GenCon used Google to organize and coordinate the DMs for is mondo large Zirnikanen <sp> game. The company I work for is big on Web apps to handle a variety of actions that tie into mainframes. (One of the things that HP actualy does quite well and doesn't get quite enough credit for.) Microsoft is moving Office online. Every version of Office 2010 will be offering up a store online feature with Skydrive.
All of this stuff is going on and there really is no end in sight. All of these things are going to work on the iPad, because it works on the web right now on a linux box with a running a P1 with 256 megs of ram and 200 meg hard drive.
The "right platform" is a bad way of doing business, you want to be as readly avaiable as many platforms that is profitable as possible.
When it comes down to it your point seems to me, "I don't like the way Apple sells things at the prices that they do and I don't like that they control thier store since that is the only way to get apps on it legally.
My point is that it doesn't matter how tight the control is on thier store, they don't control the web. If thier customers didn't want thier products, they wouldn't buy them and finally I don't really want them support the App store so much as if they wanted to get into programing, they stick with Web/Cloud/online applcations, don't support one platform over the other.
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Actually for most this is a moot discussion.
What would you be looking for in a "Paizo" application? Dice-rollers? they exist. Books? Apple will be providing a new appliation with the iPad known as iBook a format for people to provide books optimised for iPad usage which would then be sold through the iTunes App store.
And the format the iBook uses is an open source eDoc format. There are more details in the keynote, but in short we're way beyond just viewing PDFs in Preview.
Concievably IMHO for the iPad an app that performed like the Gamemastery Combat Tracker would be cool. Even better if it would be web app.
On the iPhone you can make a shortcut to the web pages to the home screens. You could easily make a page that you entered names into fields and then be able to drag and drop them into order, and make a mechanism to indicated that initiative order had past and then another mechanism to track rounds as a full round of actions had past.
Character sheets as forms would be cool. The idea of a character sheet app that actually helped track changes to your character in game might be cool. Once again, more web function IMHO rather than istore app.
From what I see the Numbers spreadsheet application of the iWork suite that's being ported over from Mac OS X to the iPad might be what you're looking for. The application itself is slated for a $9.99 cost.
Character sheets as forms would be cool. The idea of a character sheet app that actually helped track changes to your character in game might be cool. Once again, more web function IMHO rather than istore app.
It's why I want to get to my hands on demo of those Apps ASAP. Both Keynote and Numbers have very solid uses as makeshift RPG tools, for the same reason we have Excel character sheets. Much depends on how much functionality is retained compared to the full OSX versions. Multiple 'tables' on the same 'sheet', cross referencing sheets, and so on. Same goes with Keynote functionality. Pages can take a hike as far as I'm concerned, a full document writing and layout program wouldn't be very useful at the game table. If I had iWork '09 I'd be more tempted to start developing such a Numbers character sheet... but I have '08 :-( . I also want to see how non-OSX computers will be capable of transferring .number and .keynote files into the iPad. A 'download directly from web' feature would be nice there...
Although I agree with the Web 2.0 route possible route as well.
*edit*
Oh I feel dumb for not bringing this up before. For those with full computes at hand one could always turn the iPad into a gloriffied terminal system with a VNC or other remote acess program. I use my iPod almost daily in this fasion, and while not good for programs that need a high refresh rate like video games, it is one way of acessing considerably more computing power in far more game table friendly package.
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Character sheets as forms would be cool. The idea of a character sheet app that actually helped track changes to your character in game might be cool. Once again, more web function IMHO rather than istore app.
You download any number of excel spreadsheet character sheets. You get documents-to-go. And walla, you have a character sheet. :)
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from your answer I get kindly its pretty rought with suppliers?I don't agree with *all* of their objections, but here's what the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America has to say about the Kindle agreement. (Amazon recently updated their agreement, and the SFWA document currently references an older version—however, my understanding is that the SFWA folks looking at the new version like it even less.)
Googling will turn up more negative reactions from other parties.
My biggest problem, though, is Amazon's notion of the reseller (that is to say, Amazon) making the vast majority of the revenue. Amazon currently pays 35% of list price to the publisher. Compare that to the iTunes Music Store, where Apple pays artists and labels 65–70%, or paizo.com, where we pay 75% to our electronic publishing partners. As someone who knows a lot about both publishing and e-retailing, I believe the lion's share of an electronic sale should go to the publisher.
I hope—and fully expect—that the iBookstore will offer publishers a more reasonable percentage than Amazon does, and I further hope that competition from Apple will encourage Amazon to offer a more reasonable royalty in future.
I have seen some sites claiming the big publishers ot on board for the iPad because Apple's share is only 30%, leaving 70% for the publisher. That seems like a decent deal.
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Tablet PCs have been around for a long time, and are very unsuccessful as they don't have much purpose to a majority of the consumer base. 10 years if I remember roughly when the first tablet came out, maybe a bit longer now.
Still, Paul Ruben does have one of the 50 in the United States.
Hehehehe!
I used to use a tablet PC at a job several years ago. It was huge (we had should straps to help with the weight), had crappy battery life, crashed all the time, and in essence was a barely functioning almost useful computer.
While tablets have been out for some time, someone has finally made one that is USEFUL. That is the big difference.
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From what I see the Numbers spreadsheet application of the iWork suite that's being ported over from Mac OS X to the iPad might be what you're looking for. The application itself is slated for a $9.99 cost.
Character sheets as forms would be cool. The idea of a character sheet app that actually helped track changes to your character in game might be cool. Once again, more web function IMHO rather than istore app.
It's why I want to get to my hands on demo of those Apps ASAP. Both Keynote and Numbers have very solid uses as makeshift RPG tools, for the same reason we have Excel character sheets. Much depends on how much functionality is retained compared to the full OSX versions. Multiple 'tables' on the same 'sheet', cross referencing sheets, and so on. Same goes with Keynote functionality. Pages can take a hike as far as I'm concerned, a full document writing and layout program wouldn't be very useful at the game table. If I had iWork '09 I'd be more tempted to start developing such a Numbers character sheet... but I have '08 :-( . I also want to see how non-OSX computers will be capable of transferring .number and .keynote files into the iPad. A 'download directly from web' feature would be nice there...
Although I agree with the Web 2.0 route possible route as well.
*edit*
Oh I feel dumb for not bringing this up before. For those with full computes at hand one could always turn the iPad into a gloriffied terminal system with a VNC or other remote acess program. I use my iPod almost daily in this fasion, and while not good for programs that need a high refresh rate like video games, it is one way of acessing considerably more computing power in far more game table friendly package.
I use Pages for laying out adventures and game aids to give PCs. I can create some beautiful work with it. I loved the version demoed for the iPad. It looked so easy and intuitive.
Numbers looks like a perfect tool for interactive character sheets and data management for GMs and Players. I already see a lot of people creating character sheets here on the boards (I have as well), but I think Numbers on the iPad can go even further and LOOK even better.
Keynote can be a marvelous tool now that you guys mention it. No idea why I didn't think of that before.
I would LIKE to see full functioning iLife tools as well. iWeb, iPhoto, and iMovie just seem like no brainers to be exported to the iPad, and they would enhance Keynote and the rest of iWork tremendously. I am not a fan of the limited versions of these they demoed.
Oh and they NEED to get Flash running on the iPhone and iPad. I noticed in the keynote address that the iPad still does not support Flash. I guess there is some disagreement between Apple and Adobe, or Apple is just pushing their Quicktime format.
Oh and they NEED to get Flash running on the iPhone and iPad. I noticed in the keynote address that the iPad still does not support Flash. I guess there is some disagreement between Apple and Adobe, or Apple is just pushing their Quicktime format.
I don't think Apple will ever support Flash on iPhone/ iPad.
I don't think Apple cares much anymore about the Quicktime format (.mov). What they ARE doing with iPhone is ONLY supporting the .h264/AVC CODEC put out by the MPEG-LA licencing consortium (of tech companies, universities, etc, whom they pay licencing fees to), which can be embedded in .mov, .mp4, .m4v (all of which iPhones support) as well as windows media, flash, and other containers.
The "interesting" issue here is that extending the ubiquitous adoption of MPEG-LA-owned h.264/AVC is not just an issue of extending the current regime as we see with H.264 on Youtube, for example (they provide H.264/AVC via .mp4 and embedded in Flash, presumably which they are paying an indirect licence fee for the encoders that are used), but that MPEG-LA has announced they are CHANGING their licencing policy (they have "software patents" on the relevant ideas/algorhythms, which at least many people believe are legally valid in jurisdictions like the US) such that anybody DISTRIBUTING/STREAMING CONTENT, like Youtube, or if you have a video file on your blog, will have to pay per-usage licence fees IN ADDITION to the licence they directly/indirectly paid for legitimate encoding software and that paid by the viewer's decoding software... Which would put a pretty big crimp on the free exchange of information.
iPhone's video decode/encode HW is by design H.264/AVC codec only. Hopefully we will see more adaptable HW in the iPad, because precluding any other option could mean a very different future for video and the exchange of information over the internet (at least in jurisdictions enforcing software patents).
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My biggest objection to the iPad is that they have once again nerfed the memory. Why does Apple seem incapable of putting more than 64 GB in anything other than an iPod Classic? iPad should have a minimum of 256 GB of memory, if they want me to even consider it. That way it could hold all of my music, videos, and roleplaying PDFs, with ample space for further additions.
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My biggest objection to the iPad is that they have once again nerfed the memory. Why does Apple seem incapable of putting more than 64 GB in anything other than an iPod Classic? iPad should have a minimum of 256 GB of memory, if they want me to even consider it. That way it could hold all of my music, videos, and roleplaying PDFs, with ample space for further additions.
64GB would be adequate for for my library but just barely so (obviously you have a bigger library than I do- though I suppose there ARE more RPGs stuff I COULD add as well... mostly 3.5 crap though- old outdated garbage (just teasing). The idea behind the iPad is that you still use a computer so you don't need that much storage space since you can easily move stuff around.
HOWEVER, I think that many people will use the iPad in place of a computer, like I plan on. I will still have my Mac, but my day to day use would be on the iPad. I do believe that the future of computers lies in the iPad concept. I would rather have a 2.5GHz, 4GB RAM, 500 GB Flash storage, iPad than a traditional laptop or desktop any day. Given time (several years) I think the look of the iPad will be the standard of computers.
Great. I just bought this laptop 2 months ago and it's going to be obsolete in March. *sighs* ;P
Until I can have an iPhone outside the AT&T network here in the States, I won't be having it anytime soon.
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Until I can have an iPhone outside the AT&T network here in the States, I won't be having it anytime soon.
lol
I understand that.
According to Andrew (I think it was him anyway...sorry if not) the card in the iPad could be used by any carrier to offer service, so maybe the iPad will work for you once other carriers step up.
@Krome,
Different tools for different jobs. I started out trying to use Pages as a map-layout software (mainly campaign style maps) but the actual Text body of the document kept messing up my use of Text-Boxes to more precisely place names and other similar items. That's when my mind finally fire back to a college course where they had us use Power Point to create a 26x39 poster. Again it'll come down to seeing how much iWorks-pad can do that the full suit can. Depending you could also get fairly fancy with filled shapes at different transparencies as "Blast Templates" during combat tracking. Nothing would top a true fully functional VTT/GM-Tool custom designed for gaming demands, but it is nice makeshift.
@Krome and Urizen,
Jokingly in the same boat. Got this iPod back in September and I am almost kicking myself because despite its flaws the iPad is almost precisely what I wanted in this class of device. Although it would be harder to keep the iPad next to my pillow as an alarm clock. Already have a 'cheap as free with plan' phone, but they wouldn't let me have a smartphone without having to pay extra for a data-plan :-( . Apparently having a Wi-Fi (802.11) enabled PDA that could also make just standard telephone calls (didn't even care about SMS) was to much to ask.
@Nobody-In-Particular,
I was kind of thinking... forcing things like iWorks programs to serve the table... nice products would be Digital Art/Map Packs. How such things could be handled/sold/protected I can come up with a good answer right now... but thematic media (music, sound effects, images, and video* clips) that could be utilized in conjunction with other 3rd party programs, now that could be very useful and not suffer to much platform lock-in.
[Oh gosh I hope iPad Keynote can embed and play videos, and play them outside presentation mode like the full program can. That would be sweetie, and get around elements of non-multitasking. I wonder... HA! Never thought to try it but in Pages you can embed videos and double click to play. :D While I'm looking... and in Numbers to, oh this had really better be functional in the iPad adaptation.]
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My biggest objection to the iPad is that they have once again nerfed the memory. Why does Apple seem incapable of putting more than 64 GB in anything other than an iPod Classic? iPad should have a minimum of 256 GB of memory, if they want me to even consider it. That way it could hold all of my music, videos, and roleplaying PDFs, with ample space for further additions.the iPod classic is a hard drive spindle device. 256 gigs of flash memory at today's prices alone would drive the machine well beyond it's present price points.
And quite frankly Apple isn't looking at YOU to consider it. They want to get this toy out to the masses as it is the massses who will define the third space of mobile computing.
Just did a little searching, and a 256 gig solid state drive would costs around $1200 retail these days. That would likely drive the ipad north of 1500 if not 2k. I'm hemming and hawing at its current price, at that price I would be a big fat no way.
Now an sd slot... that might be worth while.
No objection to an SD port if they ever added one or at the very least a USB port and the drivers to deal with card reader adaptors... but that's something to hope for in later generations of the device.
Oh! Present a programming problem, get an answer. I just blundered into
PhoneGap.com that let's you build in HTML/JavaScript and the port to all kinds of mobile devices.
The iPad does certainly look like it has the promise of being a terrific D&D tool, and certainly it would be easier to use than my 17" laptop I end up setting up for most games.
Though having several PDFs open at the same time, and being able to alt-tab (or apple-tab) from PDFs to excel based character sheets would be lovely to have.
What I really want is one of these. and I hope apple makes a line of higher-powered tablets running real OSX (and possibly Windows via bootcamp)
Chief Technical Officer
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Have you checked your font?I'm sure the Paizo PDFs will look just as good on the iPad as they do everywhere else.Which is a problem, because there is a known bug either with the way Paizo makes its PDFs or Apple's preview application, because Paizo PDFs don't have "a"'s on Apples.Apple's Preview application for Snow Leopard (10.6) doesn't render the capital "A" in one of our fonts correctly. The "A" does render properly in Adobe Reader, and in prior versions of Preview. We notified Apple quite some time ago.
We know the font does something that most fonts avoid (the "A" is Character ID 0), but a failure to deal with that weirdness is nevertheless a bug in the renderer.
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Then that and the multitasking are probably a deal breaker for me. Not trying to say its going to be a bad product, but I want something (for my game table) where I can have a map program running tab between it and other tools I use for my game (like PDFs) and such, and that I can play Nanaca Crash on while my players take forever to level up their toons.
I think those little solid state laptops can give all of that for about 200-250. I'll miss out on the touch screen, but If it is vital to have touch, I do have a tablet notebook (despite the trashing of these already existing devices in this thread and others I have always been quite pleased with my tablet). Its not as small or sexy looking as an apple product, but it works if I need it to.
But none the less I will keep watching the product. Thanks for the reply.
love,
malkav
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As an IT person I'm beginning to hate it myself, Flash has a lot of overhead and is way way too easy as a carrier for malicious mischief, in fact several of the last Flash updates have been nothing more than issues to take care of the latest security exploits. If Steve is looking to put a stake in to the heart of FLASH, I'd be happy to hand him the mallet.Nope, no flash for the iPad. Steve jobs thinks that Adobe isn't up to the task of making it worthwile.
He does have a point. Adobe has been very sloppy with it's coding for along time. Way to many exploits. thier a very profitable company. They could get handle of this if they tried.
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Then that and the multitasking are probably a deal breaker for me. Not trying to say its going to be a bad product, but I want something (for my game table) where I can have a map program running tab between it and other tools I use for my game (like PDFs) and such, and that I can play Nanaca Crash on while my players take forever to level up their toons.
I think those little solid state laptops can give all of that for about 200-250. I'll miss out on the touch screen, but If it is vital to have touch, I do have a tablet notebook (despite the trashing of these already existing devices in this thread and others I have always been quite pleased with my tablet). Its not as small or sexy looking as an apple product, but it works if I need it to.
But none the less I will keep watching the product. Thanks for the reply.
love,
malkav
There are rumors starting to go out there that another tablet might be in the works that will have the full OSX OS. My bet it will be closer to $1000 and that will mutli task, use flash and more than likely boot camp.
I'm expecting 3 generations of iPads before we see the MacTable, which I'll just guess will be the 3rd generation MacBook Air hardware inside. By that time Apple will defiantly have a consumer base, and a general public, that is familiar with a full screen touch environment (and who won't cringe and think of TabletPCs, 'fiddling with a pen'). They will also have the developers experienced in making full screen touch applications, and enough experience with Coca and other MacOS underpinnings, who can fully support to the product (and bring games).
The only question is will HP get ahead of Apple with their touch PC, first gen due out this year. Although it a way its smart of Apple to let another manufacture take a swing at it first, as it forces Microsoft to start updating its OS's multi-touch support. Which when you look at the whole package Apple offers including Bootcamp, if Windows can't deal with the new multi-touch environment general consumers will point the finger at Apple most likely.
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In terms of Flash viewing... for me at least, I expect to use it more around the house in conjunction with my Tower. So my question is how well can the iPad handle rendering the images passed to it by a VNC client? I can *almost* watch Hulu without getting motion sick through my iPod, when backed by a Bluetooth headset linked to the Tower. Not a good solution for dealing with Flash while mobile, but the option is there.
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The only question is will HP get ahead of Apple with their touch PC, first gen due out this year. Although it a way its smart of Apple to let another manufacture take a swing at it first, as it forces Microsoft to start updating its OS's multi-touch support. Which when you look at the whole package Apple offers including Bootcamp, if Windows can't deal with the new multi-touch environment general consumers will point the finger at Apple most likely.[/QUOTE="Dorje Sylas"]My only issue is that HP tends to run hot on the tablets they have now. If they can get past that, it sounds like they will have leapfroged the iPad.
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Then that and the multitasking are probably a deal breaker for me.
I have an iPhone and if the iTablet behaves like my iPhone, then some multitasking works. For instance, on my iPhone, I can play my iTunes and surf the web at the same time while having the alarm working in the background. So there is that type of multitasking. Also, on a lot of the apps, I can leave that app to do something else and when I come back the app (like a game or database) is in the same position I left it in. So if the iTablet is like the iPhone, then some multitasking does work.
-Lisa
Multitasking between non-Apple/ non-'core' Apps is supposed to happen in the next OS update sometime later this year,
they are just planning on releasing the tablet earlier (but iPhones/iPad will have free OS updates).
The only question is will HP get ahead of Apple with their touch PC, first gen due out this year. Although it a way its smart of Apple to let another manufacture take a swing at it first, as it forces Microsoft to start updating its OS's multi-touch support. Which when you look at the whole package Apple offers including Bootcamp, if Windows can't deal with the new multi-touch environment general consumers will point the finger at Apple most likely.
This is nothing new. Such type of 'tablet PCs' have existed for a long time now. You can even get a modified Apple MacBook like this (google "modbook") though it's expensive. Apple is WELL aware of this, but doesn't find it compelling to just slap a touchscreen on a normal 'desktop' computer interface. The iPad is about a completely new 'space' for computing devices... and many other manufacturers agree, which is why they are planning on introducing very similar tablet devices using linux-based OS's (like this one - you probably can tell apple has somewhat of a software advantage here).
But if it's not for you, certainly normal notebooks, ultra-mini notebooks and touchpanel notebooks also exist.