Lets say I want to add the vampire template to an ogre. Do the ogre's 4 racial hit dice still count as being Humanoid for determining BAB, saves, and skills, or do they become Undead?
Also, what happens when a creature already has DR and resistances, but gains DR and resistances from the template? Do they all get added up, or do the template ones replace the racial ones?
it depends on the template, but typically creatures get the 'augmented' subtype, meaning they keep most of the stats they had.
Ogre would maintain his BAB and counts as undead 'augmented humanoid'
saves as per humanoids, losing con modifier ofcourse, same for skills.
" Most vampires were once
humanoids, fey, or monstrous humanoids. A vampire uses
the base creature’s stats and abilities except as noted here."
"Type: The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented).
Do not recalculate class Hit Dice, BAB, or saves."
"Hit Dice: Change all racial Hit Dice to d8s. Class
Hit Dice are unaffected. As undead, vampires use their
Charisma modifier to determine bonus hit points
(instead of Constitution)."
well that is all in the template description,
DR do not stack, they are effectively both granted, you use what will be best in any given situation.
resistances, like energy resistance and such I usually stack when it seems appropriate.
I don't think that energy resistance stacks, unless it says that it specifically increases it.
What about class skills? Does the creature switch to the class skills of it's new type, gain the class skills of both types, or just keep the class skills of it's previous type? So would a vampire ogre get undead class skills, humanoid class skills, or both?
Edit: Also, does the number of skill ranks change? The template says not to adjust class hit dice, BAB, and saves, (I'm assuming this means BAB and saves from racial hid dice as well, doesn't it?) but it doesn't say what to do with skills.
Creative Director
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What about class skills? Does the creature switch to the class skills of it's new type, gain the class skills of both types, or just keep the class skills of it's previous type? So would a vampire ogre get undead class skills, humanoid class skills, or both?
The vampire entry says only that the vampire gets a bonus on certain skills. He keeps whatever skills the base creature has (and that includes all of the base creature's class skills).
What about class skills? Does the creature switch to the class skills of it's new type, gain the class skills of both types, or just keep the class skills of it's previous type? So would a vampire ogre get undead class skills, humanoid class skills, or both?The vampire entry says only that the vampire gets a bonus on certain skills. He keeps whatever skills the base creature has (and that includes all of the base creature's class skills).
But how do you determine which of it's skills count as class skills? Since the creature's type changes to undead does that mean only the class skills for undead get the +3 class skill bonus? Or does the creature keep the class skills of it's original type?
I would say it's like multiclassing. It uses the base creatures and undead skills.
But how do you determine which of it's skills count as class skills? Since the creature's type changes to undead does that mean only the class skills for undead get the +3 class skill bonus? Or does the creature keep the class skills of it's original type?What about class skills? Does the creature switch to the class skills of it's new type, gain the class skills of both types, or just keep the class skills of it's previous type? So would a vampire ogre get undead class skills, humanoid class skills, or both?The vampire entry says only that the vampire gets a bonus on certain skills. He keeps whatever skills the base creature has (and that includes all of the base creature's class skills).
there is no such thing as undead class skills, you keep your ogre skills.
In Pathfinder, once a class skill, always a class skill. It makes skill point buying much simpler!
The way to do it is to build it as an ogre, then add the vampire template after that is worked out. If it then gets any class levels after itbecame a vampire, apply those after the template so they get the skill advantages.
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Creative Director
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But how do you determine which of it's skills count as class skills? Since the creature's type changes to undead does that mean only the class skills for undead get the +3 class skill bonus? Or does the creature keep the class skills of it's original type?
Yeah; once you gain something as a class skill, it's ALWAYS a class skill. Even if you buy ranks in that skill from a class or race that normally doesn't have class skills. It's a MUCH simpler way of handling skills.
Unless a template SPECIFICALLY SAYS that you change the creature's class skills (and to my knowledge, no template does this and none ever should), whatever the creature had going into the template stays its class skills.
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Unless a template SPECIFICALLY SAYS that you change the creature's class skills (and to my knowledge, no template does this and none ever should), whatever the creature had going into the template stays its class skills.
As I see it, the danger of ruling that only specifically mentioned changes apply, is that a lot of changes are implicit in the new type.
A lot of templates will say that 'the creature's type changes to X'.
Checking what that means, in the 'type', gives further information on traits common to such creatures.
Having one GM rule that only changes specifically mentioned in the template apply, while another GM rules that all implied changes from type apply, would give a very different experience, one that could mean walking into a TPK, or a cakewalk.
An example I have recently used:
Adding juju zombie template to a hill giant:
The template states they are immune to cold, electricity, and magic missile.
Hmm, that's OK, but.....
Undead type lists immunities as ...<deep breath>...
mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms), bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, stunning, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain, damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects, any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless), and massive damage.
Big difference between those two lists. I would interpret the template as granting the combined effects.
But then, I check out the templates for a much simpler and less dangerous creature...
Checking the zombie template shows that they 'lose their defensive abilities and gain all of the qualities and immunities granted by the undead type. Zombies gain DR 5/slashing.'.
Which explicitly states that a bog-standard zombie gains the laundry-list of special immunities.
I can't see the juju zombie being susceptible to most of the things a regular zombie would shrug off. Not at [original CR +2], compared to [CR based on less than half final HD].
Some of this may be due to cut'n'paste issues from 3.5, and a change in the way templates were assumed to function.
But it may be something to keep in mind for a future revision, that it would help if templates did explicitly state which of the normal creature type benefits apply.