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In one of my CotCT games the cleric took Quickened channeling. It lets him channel as a swift action. No dice penalties and it really doesn't seem to hurt the game at all. Yes you have to do more damage to the party to threaten them but really when he rolls 2-1's and a 3 for his channel it pretty much becomes apparent how unbroken this is.
I fear this would turn Clerics into supernovas whenever there are undead about. Cast and blast at the same time.
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I'd say something like this might work, if your DM/GM is feeling particularly generous.
Quicken Channeling
Pre-Requisites: Cha 17+, Channel Energy 5d6, Extra Channel
Benefit: You can channel energy as a swift action, however you subtract 4d6 from your channel dice.
The damage dice from Channel Energy and spell levels are gained at the same general rate, so the cost to use it as a swift action should be the same as well.
As GM, I wouldn't allow it.
Channeling does not equal Turning, no way, not at all.
The feat was intended for turn undead only, and a -4 penalty would be quite hard with the old turning rules, even then I considered it a lame feat.
I'd definately not allow channeling as a free (or swift action).
I have allowed it in my campaign, with no penalty and no prerequisite.
I do not believe that it has hurt game balance, nor made the cleric into a supernova where healing and or undead are concerned. I took into consideration the fact that the cleric has a limited number of times that they can channel a day, even if they do take extra channeling.
Game balance is a relative term, in general this feat is not balanced though, a limited numbers per day is enough to make it last through half the number of combat rounds you will get in a day already.
A party with one cleric isn't unbalanced, neither is a party with two clerics, one cleric doing the work of two clerics will most likely not interfere with anyone's abilities, though a danger is a party becoming to dependent on the clerics mad channeling abilities to make it through an encounter.
I on the other hand don't use channeling at all and that isn't unbalanced either :p
FYI, the 3.5 version of the Quicken Turning feat (from Complete Divine and Libris Mortis) simply requires that one can turn or rebuke undead. It still only allows one turning attempt per round.
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I'd say something like this might work, if your DM/GM is feeling particularly generous.
Quicken Channeling
Pre-Requisites: Cha 17+, Channel Energy 5d6, Extra Channel
Benefit: You can channel energy as a swift action, however you subtract 4d6 from your channel dice.The damage dice from Channel Energy and spell levels are gained at the same general rate, so the cost to use it as a swift action should be the same as well.
I like this a lot. I would probably remove the Cha 17+, and the extra channel requirements (unless these are carry overs from the quickened turning feat that is being discussed). But I think it is an excellent way to handle it: Let the cleric get a reduced power channel for a swift action.
love,
malkav
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I have allowed it in my campaign, with no penalty and no prerequisite.
We did the same in my current game, where our LN Cleric channels negative energy. It's a handy tactic, but it's not even remotely unbalancing. He throws out maybe one or two per combat to soften up the mooks and occasionally drops a couple of 'em.
The important thing is he has to put himself in harm's way to pull it off and took the Selective Channelling feat to avoid hitting the rest of the party.
He's the only character in the group that's actually died in combat.
I'd probably make it go threw two Feats:
Fast Chaneling: As a move action (so you can pile it with a Casting)
Swift Chaneling: As a swift action.
I would allow it as a swift action, but 1/2 result.
so it doesn't completely wreck the 5d6 channel to a 1d6, while allowing a 10d6 channel to be a 6d6. Roll the standard dice, but halve the result.
So 5d6 (avg 17.5 becomes avg 8.75), and 10d6 (avg 35 becomes 17.5)
I'd allow:
SWIFT CHANNEL
You can channel energy with a moment's thought.
Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature, Cha 13, Extra Channel.
Benefits: you can channel energy as a swift action, but reduce the amount of damage or healing caused by 2d6. You may only channel energy once per round.
There are some nice conversions of old school Turning feats into Pathfinder Channels here.
This was my opinion until I read your suggestion:
As GM, I wouldn't allow it.
Channeling does not equal Turning, no way, not at all.
Now I think reducing the dice would be an excellent way of balancing it (using up extra uses/day was they only way I thought of previously, and that wasn't so good).
Tough call on how much though. I was thinking -2d6 and -2DC (that's roughly equivalent to the Forgotten Realms version). But that makes channeling to Heal far less affected. -4d6 is pretty harsh, and leaves "Turn Undead" completely unaffected.
I think -3d6 to heal, -2d6 + -2DC to harm, and -3DC to "other affects" would be a good solution, but rather complicated. Which leaves -2d6 and -2DC, regardless of effect, as a workable solution.
Still don't *like* swift action channeling, but seems reasonable.
I believe that -4d6 is too much. It should be -2d6. The -4 when doing turning equates to 4 levels. Minus four levels of channeling is -2d6 due to slower progression than say, Fireball.
Be careful though. An evil NPC cleric could possibly TPK the party pretty quickly if he's throwing a 5d6 channel and a 10d6 Flame Strike every round especially if he gets a surprise round in there first.
EDIT: Ninjaed
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You gain a new spell level every 2 class levels, and Quickening a spell costs 4 spell levels. You gain a new die of channeling damage every 2 cleric class levels, so it should cost 4 dice as well. If you do want to bring Turn Undead into it then you should function as a cleric of -4 effective levels, or -2 to the DC.
From a purely mathematical perspective, as a swift action, Quicken Channeling should be at -4 dice and -2 to the DC.
This was my opinion until I read your suggestion:
As GM, I wouldn't allow it.
Channeling does not equal Turning, no way, not at all.Now I think reducing the dice would be an excellent way of balancing it (using up extra uses/day was they only way I thought of previously, and that wasn't so good).
Tough call on how much though. I was thinking -2d6 and -2DC (that's roughly equivalent to the Forgotten Realms version). But that makes channeling to Heal far less affected. -4d6 is pretty harsh, and leaves "Turn Undead" completely unaffected.
I think -3d6 to heal, -2d6 + -2DC to harm, and -3DC to "other affects" would be a good solution, but rather complicated. Which leaves -2d6 and -2DC, regardless of effect, as a workable solution.
Still don't *like* swift action channeling, but seems reasonable.
Actually, I think 3d6 or 4d6 is about right. You are basically quickening the ability. Quicken spell is 4 spell levels, which translates to 8 caster levels for a cleric, which is 4 dice of channeling ability. Now, quicken spell can be used with any spell, this feat can only be used with a single class ability. Maybe that is worth some reduction, but as a DM I would not go lower than -3d6/-3 DC.
Also, there are already ways to use your channel as part of another action via feats like channel smite. A buffed cleric with channel smite can put a lot of hurt on an undead creature with a 2handed weapon + strength buff + divine favor + 6d6 damage on top of that. Of course you lose the AoE aspect of the channel to do that.
You gain a new spell level every 2 class levels, and Quickening a spell costs 4 spell levels. You gain a new die of channeling damage every 2 cleric class levels, so it should cost 4 dice as well. If you do want to bring Turn Undead into it then you should function as a cleric of -4 effective levels, or -2 to the DC.
From a purely mathematical perspective, as a swift action, Quicken Channeling should be at -4 dice and -2 to the DC.
You're right, looking at it from that angle. Of course, sacrificing 4d6 of your chanelling energy to do it for free is pretty much a waste of a channel. You couldn't use it until 9th level where as you'd get to do a whopping 1d6 channel as a free action. I know that I'd never waste a feat on that unless I was epic level.
You're right, looking at it from that angle. Of course, sacrificing 4d6 of your chanelling energy to do it for free is pretty much a waste of a channel. You couldn't use it until 9th level where as you'd get to do a whopping 1d6 channel as a free action. I know that I'd never waste a feat on that unless I was epic level.You gain a new spell level every 2 class levels, and Quickening a spell costs 4 spell levels. You gain a new die of channeling damage every 2 cleric class levels, so it should cost 4 dice as well. If you do want to bring Turn Undead into it then you should function as a cleric of -4 effective levels, or -2 to the DC.
From a purely mathematical perspective, as a swift action, Quicken Channeling should be at -4 dice and -2 to the DC.
Another option. Look at channel smite. It allows you to channel as a swift action, but you lose the AoE portion of the channel. It allows you to add the channel to your melee attack.
So perhaps a version that allows you to channel as a swift action, but you only effect a single target.
I don't think worrying about balancing the Turn Undead feat is helpful. The new feat-based mechanic for turning undead is already fairly weak. It requires an entire feat to gain the functionality, and intelligent undead get saves every round to end the effect. Turn Undead is nerfed enough. . . no need to nerf DCs when using a swift action speed channel energy.
Edit -- whoops, Turn Undead is a standard action to use, as described in the feat. I think it should *always* be a standard action. Here's a rewrite of my feat:
SWIFT CHANNEL
You can channel energy with a moment's thought.
Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature, Cha 13, Extra Channel.
Benefits: you can channel energy to heal or deal damage as a swift action, but reduce the amount of damage or healing caused by 2d6. You may only channel energy once per round.
I am the Cleric(8th level) in Brutesquad's campaign that uses "Quickened Channeling" aka channel energy as a swift action. Honestly, I've been using the feat primarily as a means to heal people I can't reach and all it really does is give them 'one more hit'. I can channel 5 times a day.
The number of healing/damage is not a static number, it's still a die roll, still very much a random roll. As I don't have loaded D6's, we usually see average or below average numbers... 4d6 averages into what 12-15 HP? On 8th level characters who are all around 50-60 health and enemies are doing 10-30 damage a hit, sometimes multiple times a round. I still had to grab "Selective Channeling" so I don't heal bad guys (removes 3 for me).
Having it work this way also allows me to be more than just the party bandaid. I actually get to do something other than bounce from character to character healing (rinse-&-repeat x1,000,000).
Even if your Cleric specs himself completely for channels, he has maybe 10 channels a day, using 3-4 everytime you encounter undead? Wonderful, 3 or 4 encounters later your Cleric has completely exhausted all of his channel energys when an 8th level wizard/sorcerer could be throwing 8D6 Fireballs, or worse if you're allowed splatbooks. If your undead at level 8 have under 1 HD, then yes, you may have something to worry about. Somehow I highly doubt it.
I'm really not seeing where it's broken/overpowered at all. Nor do I see a need to remove D6's as the average number is low enough already.
I am the Cleric(8th level) in Brutesquad's campaign that uses "Quickened Channeling" aka channel energy as a swift action. Honestly, I've been using the feat primarily as a means to heal people I can't reach and all it really does is give them 'one more hit'. I can channel 5 times a day.
The number of healing/damage is not a static number, it's still a die roll, still very much a random roll. As I don't have loaded D6's, we usually see average or below average numbers... 4d6 averages into what 12-15 HP? On 8th level characters who are all around 50-60 health and enemies are doing 10-30 damage a hit, sometimes multiple times a round. I still had to grab "Selective Channeling" so I don't heal bad guys (removes 3 for me).
Having it work this way also allows me to be more than just the party bandaid. I actually get to do something other than bounce from character to character healing (rinse-&-repeat x1,000,000).
Even if your Cleric specs himself completely for channels, he has maybe 10 channels a day, using 3-4 everytime you encounter undead? Wonderful, 3 or 4 encounters later your Cleric has completely exhausted all of his channel energys when an 8th level wizard/sorcerer could be throwing 8D6 Fireballs, or worse if you're allowed splatbooks. If your undead at level 8 have under 1 HD, then yes, you may have something to worry about. Somehow I highly doubt it.
I'm really not seeing where it's broken/overpowered at all. Nor do I see a need to remove D6's as the average number is low enough already.
The thing that you have to worry about is me...er, I mean my character. He's now a 10th level negative energy channeling cleric. He has ten 7d6 channels per day with a DC 23 Will Save and I have no CHA boosting items yet. Once I get 8000gp and some time, you can kick that up to 12 channels at DC 25 or higher.
You give me the ability to do that and toss a Flamestrike every round, the Evoker is going to mighty jeleous.